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Old 04-17-2010, 06:23 PM   #61
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Casey on Grimek and roids:

Quote:
From all that can be gathered about Grimek's testosterone/steroid use it looks like he never got his hands on testosterone until very late 1954 or 1955 - five to six years after he retired from competition. However, he did know about testosterone before that, because he purportedly inquired about it in a letter to Paul de Kruif sometime after de Kruif's book, The Male Hormone, was released in 1945. In that book, however, de Kruif promotes testosterone primarily to the medical community for the aging and people in specific need of it - he makes no leap to its potential use by athletes but does say, "what could it do for a healthy person?" People often use that book to "prove" that bodybuilders were using testosterone in the 1940s, but the book makes no such connections and testosterone wasn't being manufactured and wasn't available at that time because of it's FDA status anyway.

By his own and Ziegler's accounts, Grimeks mid-1950s 'trial' of testosterone wasn't successful and he stopped within a few weeks because he thought it wasn't doing anything for him and he might be actually getting weaker. It then looks like he then went on synthetics (Dianabol) in 1959 or later - a decade after his retirement from competition.

As for the mid-1950s 'experiment' I can see a couple of possible explanations for the lack of results. One) Ziegler (the physician who was administering testosterone to Grimek) had seen Soviet athletes who had experienced horrible side-effects due to testosterone use (one even needing a catheter) and was, no doubt, being very cautious with his initial doses. Ziegler himself said that he was afraid of the possible side-effects of testosterone use and that's what prompted him to co-develop Dianabol with CIBA. Grimek probably had very high natural testosterone levels (he was, after all, incredibly gifted for lifting) and when the exogeneous testosterone was introduced his body could probably balance the levels by reducing it's own production. I've known a few users who experienced no results whatsoever on low doses of testosterone enanthate - not until they increased the injections past a certain threshold that overcame their body's own abilities to compensate. And Two) Grimek might have gone gung-ho because he knew he was taking testosterone and ended up overtrained.

Both explanations are just speculation, but I'm not really surprised that he got no results on Ziegler's likely very low doses of testosterone suspension.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:24 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by JordanW
Quote:
Your an idiot, these guys werent natural, testosterone has be widely used since the 1930s, in 1950 it was full blown in every gym across the globe, Test and Dbol were outrageously popular
Casey:

Quote:
Complete clueless ignorance. At the very least read the rest of this thread before making a fool of yourself. Testosterone wasn't FDA approved until 1950. The Soviets were the first known users for athletic purposes, starting between 1952 and 1954. John Grimek, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara were Guinea pigs for the first known 'trials' of testosterone on lifters/bodybuilders in the west in 1955 and had unsatisfactory results thus leading to Ziegler's co-development of Dianabol. Dbol itself wasn't developed until 1956 and wasn't FDA approved until 1958. West coast bodybuilders such as Bill Pearl and even Nautilus inventor Arthur Jones have said that it was Nilevar, not Dbol or testosterone, that was the first anabolic/androgenic they used, starting in 1958. The U.S. Weightlifting team were the first known athletes to begin experimenting with Dbol (Ziegler, the team physician, having been one of its co-developers) on a very limited basis of three lifters in 1959 (possibly late '58). Most bodybuilders and lifters, even at the elite levels, didn't learn of "tissue building drugs" until the early-to-mid 1960s - this has been verified by Bill Starr, Larry Scott, Don Howorth, Vern Weaver, Chet Yorton, Reg Park, etc, etc, etc. By that time Reg Park had won the Mr. Universe at least twice (1951 and 1958) and once before even the Soviets are believed to have begun using. Reeves and Grimek were Mr. America, Mr. USA, Mr. World and Mr. Universe and were retired from competition before testosterone was even FDA approved. Without FDA approval drug companies have no market for their products and are only able to make limited amounts for lab purposes only.

It is terribly ignorant and incorrect posts such as yours that diminish the value of online bodybuilding forums and turn them into jokes.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:25 PM   #63
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Quote:

Quote:
By 1956 Dianabol exploded onto the black market...
Casey

Quote:
Prove it.

Dianabol wasn't FDA approved until 1958. Before that it was in it's developmental stages at CIBA. Ziegler himself didn't have access to it for athletic experimentation until 1958. Even then, it trinkled into the athletic world over a period of years. It never "exploded" onto anything.

Without FDA approval a drug cannot be made in quantity in the U.S.. Modern bodybuilders use FDA approved drugs for "recreational purposes" for which they were not approved, and source drugs from outside the U.S. (hence, the huge black market for European and Mexican steroids). As Nilevar and Dianabol were the first synthetic anabolics developed, no countries other than the U.S. were manufacturing them before 1956 and 1958, respectively. Up to that point, the Soviets used testosterone alone (Russia ceased to exist as a country in 1922 and didn't exist again until 1991 - another fact of which you are obviously ignorant).

You are probably the most ignorant member of this entire forum. The most you know about steroid history comes from what you just read in my posts. I think it's a sad reflection of our society and education systems when misinformed boys like you feel qualified to post their fantasies publically and where people just might know the difference. Before you jump in and attempt to ruin an otherwise interesting thread, at least try to educate yourself a little. Regardless, I know at least 1000 times more than you about this subject, so if you don't want to make a further fool of yourself I suggest you pick your words more thoughtfully.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:27 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by agvares
Quote:
but they all used gear. it's simply so, it doesn't take anything away from their accomplishments.
Casey:

Quote:
Synthetic steroids did not exist, nor was testosterone in use in athletics when Reg Park won his first Mr. Universe title in 1951. It's possible that the Soviet physicians were experimenting with it on Weightlifters as early as that time, but a statistical analysis of Weightlifting totals does not indicate so and hints otherwise. In fact, 1952 is thought to be the earliest year that athletes anywhere in the world (namely, the Soviet Union) were "using". No one in the west had realized that testosterone had possible athletic applications until late 1954. Reg Park weighed two pounds heavier at the Mr. Universe in 1971 (when steroids were available) than he did in 1951 (when they were not in use). So, if Park did start taking steroids when they became widespread in the 1960s, they contributed two pounds to his physique.

It is possible that in the later part of his career Park could have used steroids, but he most certainly did not when he won his first Mr. Universe title... and he only got marginally bigger after that. If you look at photos of Park from his 1951 Mr. Universe win, to his 1958 Mr. Universe win, to his last competitions in the 1970s you'll see that his physique, while perhaps showing gradual "refinements", did not increase in size substantially. That suggests that if he used steroids when they became available to him he either didn't use enough (or possibly only took them pre-contest, which was how bodybuilders of the early 1960s typically did it), started training like a pansy and used steroids to maintain his physique, or didn't use them at all.

And, no, Reg Park's physique was not beyond what a man 6'1" tall with 8" wrists and 9.5" ankles could "theoretically" achieve without steroids. In fact, scaled for height and structure he comes out at almost the same statistics exactly as Dave Goodin, Ben Tennessen or any other of the modern drug-tested pros... The WeighTrainer - Your Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements

I really don't know how to make it any clearer than that and I cannot fathom that a human brain can be too stupid to understand it. How some of you can continue to repeat dumb blanket statements like, "Reg Park used gear", with no proof whatsoever, in light of all that's been said in this thread is beyond me.

Please don't post spreading misinformation, ignorance, and fabrications to people who are reading this and don't know otherwise. If you have some psychological condition that makes you need to believe that everyone who ever built an impressive physique was taking steroids, then that's too bad for you. But at least make an effort to learn what you're talking about before you shoot your mouth off.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:29 PM   #65
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Casey:

Quote:
Yuri Vlasov didn't begin lifting until he joined the Air Force Academy in 1953. He wasn't on the World stage until 1959. Soviet lifters were using testosterone long before Vlasov. Paul Anderson was not the first American lifter to use steroids. In fact, he was retired from competition when Bill March and Tony Garcy - the real first American Weightlifters to use steroids - started experimenting with Dianabol. There's no evidence whatsoever that Anderson ever used steroids.
Quote: from some schmuck
Quote:
2) i really don't give a crap about all this years, the avaliability of the stuff etc., Reg Park used close to Arnold (who started using gear at what? 16?) and Draper (who admitted the usage too), it just can't be so that an athlete no matter how dramatically genetically gifted he is looks close to the enhahced ones.
Casey:

Quote:
Park was Mr. Universe in 1951 when Arnold was 4 years old and the two never met until 15 years after that, in 1966. He was Mr. Universe 14 years before Draper. Even though Park's career spanned into theirs he was, in fact, from a different generation. Arnold used steroids, Draper used steroids, but that says nothing of Park, who started before they were available. Perhaps he did use them in the 1960s, but not before 1958 - when he is generally considered to have been in his best shape anyway. The fact that Park was as good or better in 1952 than he was in 1972 lends some creedence to his claim of never having used them, even when they became known and available in the 1960s. But I agree that it's usually not hard to spot the high-level drug users.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:29 PM   #66
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Casey:

Quote:
Park weighed 10-15 pounds less than Schwarzenegger, but had a larger upper body bone structure and rib cage than Arnold, that's why he didn't come off looking bad against him even though he was not as big muscularly.
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