Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Powerlifting & Strength Training
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Powerlifting & Strength Training Topics related to powerlifting and strength training.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #1
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,790
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default Squats and Deadlifts on the same day

Long story short, I created an intermediate workout which featured squats and deadlifts on the same day. Week 1 was heavy squats and moderate deadlift weight and reps. Week 2 was the opposite.

Nothing super taxing or extreme.

I was met with a lecture:




Quote:
I sincerely think that this program has a huge fundamental flaw. In that, the central nervous system has autonomic processes which help to stimulate the correct neuromuscular pathways with technique oriented motions, such as the deadlift and squat. As you continue to progress in these movement patterns and increases in load the central nervous system compensates by essentially triggering the correct muscles to activate at the proper time to maxamize load while minimizing energy expendature. By doing 2 sequential complex moves that require proper neuromuscular coordination, one could expect a technical breakdown of the second motion as well as improper positioning the the first (i.e. if you squat first then your deadlifts are both compromised in form and weight since these 2 exercises are, technique wise, independent of each other).

I realize the idea of this program is to stimulate the primary mover muscles for hypertrophy. However, it's neither ideal nor is it safe to use heavier weights in this program. You would be better off doing some other program.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 09-12-2013, 02:31 PM   #2
5kgLifter
Kettlebells' Angel !!!!
Max Brawn
Points: 23,645, Level: 94 Points: 23,645, Level: 94 Points: 23,645, Level: 94
Activity: 11% Activity: 11% Activity: 11%
 
5kgLifter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 13,927
Training Type: Other
Reputation: 646483
5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!5kgLifter is one with Crom!
Default

The excuse that you can't squat and deadlift in the same workout is weak. Andy Bolton squats and deadlifts heavy in the same workout, and so does Konstantinovs and they are stronger than you.


http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2010/05...layout-in.html
__________________
36.5 kg /80.3 lb Middle-Finger DL (right hand)...
5kgLifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 02:36 PM   #3
Off Road
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
Off Road's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,606
Reputation: 786994
Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!
Default

He writes really purdy though
Makes it seem intelligent.
Off Road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 02:48 PM   #4
BigJosh
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 11,344, Level: 70 Points: 11,344, Level: 70 Points: 11,344, Level: 70
Activity: 17% Activity: 17% Activity: 17%
 
BigJosh's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central California
Posts: 4,044
Training Exp: 7-8 years
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Bench Press and Curls Bro
Fav Supp: Opti-Men Multi Vit
Reputation: 241059
BigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master member
Default

Big words....
I've done 3 different routines that I can think of over the years that had squats and deads on the same day. RIppetoe Novice program, Madcow 5x5 and and the 20 rep squat H/L/M routine (which i believe is from an article that you wrote). All 3 routines where very successful for me at the time. So much so, that I would probably be open to using madcow and the 20 rep squat routine again in the future, now that I stop and think about it.
I would suggest that Mr. Brainiac try it for a couple months and see what kind of results he gets. Does He Even Lift?
__________________
Zdravko Veselin Gaeta

I am not a powerlifter nor am I a bodybuilder. I just want to be big and strong.
Quote:
[Today 05:50 PM] BendtheBar: Write that quote down
[Today 05:50 PM] BendtheBar: If I am going to be a bro, I am going to be the best
Make gains, not excuses.
BigJosh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 02:53 PM   #5
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,790
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
He writes really purdy though
Makes it seem intelligent.
Anything to justify his adopted view of reality.

I have no proof that he exists, though I am quite confident he owns a thesaurus.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 03:28 PM   #6
Tannhauser
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 138,239, Level: 100 Points: 138,239, Level: 100 Points: 138,239, Level: 100
Activity: 28% Activity: 28% Activity: 28%
 
Tannhauser's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 3,041
Training Exp: 30+
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Front squat
Fav Supp: Creatine. C'est tout.
Reputation: 342484
Tannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite memberTannhauser is an elite member
Default

The problem isn't his choice of vocabulary (c'mon guys, really? ), it's that what he's saying doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
In that, the central nervous system has autonomic processes which help to stimulate the correct neuromuscular pathways with technique oriented motions, such as the deadlift and squat..
Voluntary movement is initiated by the prefrontal cortex and then activated by messages from the motor cortex. As far as I know, you wouldn't call this an autonomic (automatic) process; that's more correctly applied to processes like breathing. But that aside, fair enough, the CNS controls deadlift and squats, just like it does writing your name or drinking a cup of cocoa.

Quote:
As you continue to progress in these movement patterns and increases in load the central nervous system compensates by essentially triggering the correct muscles to activate at the proper time to maxamize load while minimizing energy expendature.
I'm not sure what he's on about here, though. As the load gets greater, the CNS tries to maximise load? How can the CNS change movement to maximise load? Load on what? And why would it do that? And how would maximising load manage to minimise energy expenditure? I don't get it.

Quote:
By doing 2 sequential complex moves that require proper neuromuscular coordination...
All movements involve proper neuromuscular coordination,including getting up off the couch.

Quote:
... one could expect a technical breakdown of the second motion as well as improper positioning the the first...
OK, I get that it might be difficult to do a complex second motion if you're exhausted from the first. But I can't see how the sequencing of two movements affects the first of these.

Quote:
(i.e. if you squat first then your deadlifts are both compromised in form and weight since these 2 exercises are, technique wise, independent of each other).
But if the movements are independent of each other, why does one compromise the other?

I think that overall, he's just saying that the first exercise will compromise the second. I think it does, to some extent. But after a period of adaptation, it's often less then might be expected, and the benefits of higher frequency can more than offset that.
__________________
Lifetime PRs

Powerlifts: 500/363/573 @ 220 belt only
front squat: 403
dips: bodyweight + 176 x 4
military press: 232
Tannhauser is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 04:02 PM   #7
MarAri
Senior Member
Brawn
Points: 798, Level: 14 Points: 798, Level: 14 Points: 798, Level: 14
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
MarAri's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 136
Training Exp: 14
Training Type: Powerlifting
Reputation: 5260
MarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributorMarAri is a consistent contributor
Default

People with those kind of concerns will never get anywhere. It's not rocket science that we do.
__________________
Vikings never gave a shit how they looked when they swung the axe, only that the axe landed hard and with purpose.
MarAri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 08:55 PM   #8
Henry19
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 3,767, Level: 38 Points: 3,767, Level: 38 Points: 3,767, Level: 38
Activity: 32% Activity: 32% Activity: 32%
 
Henry19's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,222
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Deadlift/Squat
Fav Supp: Skittles
Reputation: 132064
Henry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master memberHenry19 is a master member
Default

I'm gonna go ahead and say that he's overthinking concepts without practing/experimenting with them.
__________________
"First with the head, then with the heart"
Henry19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 10:21 PM   #9
Randoja
Powered by Purus
Max Brawn
Points: 7,378, Level: 57 Points: 7,378, Level: 57 Points: 7,378, Level: 57
Activity: 9% Activity: 9% Activity: 9%
 
Randoja's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,164
Training Exp: 12 years on and off.
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Squat/Bench/Dead
Fav Supp: Whole Milk
Reputation: 143191
Randoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master memberRandoja is a master member
Default

Lol

Purus Labs Rep
Mobile post
__________________
Purus Labs Rep, I frequent the Shoutbox.
Unbreakable Gear Athlete
www.thesquatjedi.com
www.puruslabs.net
www.unbreakablegear.com <--Save 10% on apparel with coupon code MAB10!
Meet PR's:451/270/501 (181) 479/270/529 (198) Best Total: 1212@181 1278@198
Randoja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 10:32 PM   #10
Bronco
Cool Guy
Brawn
Points: 1,448, Level: 21 Points: 1,448, Level: 21 Points: 1,448, Level: 21
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
 
Bronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 171
Training Exp: 2
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 10202
Bronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributorBronco is a dedicated contributor
Default

The lecturer is mostly correct, actually.
Just forgot the final clause

Quote:
...
I realize the idea of this program is to stimulate the primary mover muscles for hypertrophy. However, it's neither ideal nor is it safe to use heavier weights in this program. You would be better off doing some other program, if you are a pansy.
Bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Squats and Deadlifts, something we can all enjoy. Randoja Powerlifting & Strength Training 20 09-06-2013 06:49 PM
Deadlifts and Squats at My Meet BendtheBar Powerlifting & Strength Training 11 07-01-2013 12:08 PM
Fullbody and Squats & Deadlifts BendtheBar Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 15 06-17-2011 08:06 AM
squats and deadlifts , how much ? abett07 Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 24 05-02-2011 01:23 PM
I Don't Like Deadlifts and Squats BendtheBar Powerlifting & Strength Training 13 10-20-2010 02:00 PM

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.