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Old 12-06-2009, 10:20 PM   #11
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Jason Ferruggia on Boyle:

Iíve gotten a lot of questions the last few days about my opinion on Mike Boyleís video claiming that the back squat is dead. Like I said, I donít agree with everything Mike says. Nor do I agree with everything Alwyn Cosgrove or Chad Waterbury say. But they are smart guys who know their shit. I learn something from each of them and I like a lot of what Mike has to say about warming up, rehabbing and staying injury proof. But Iím never just going to throw out what I know works based on one guys theories.

So here is my opinion on Mikeís claim that the back squat is dead Ö

Bullshit. Long live the back squat.

Itís a great exercise that is far from dead. We all know that the limiting factor in the back squat is not leg strength. Anyone whoís ever done a single set of leg presses has proven that to themselves. The limiting factor is the strength of the lower back, abs, obliques, etc. The whole core region goes way before the legs do.

So does that mean you should throw it out and instead only load guys with split squats and step ups? Of course not. When it comes to training economy you canít beat the back squat. No single leg exercise will do what it does for you.

What about the squat not maximally overloading the legs? Invalid argument in my opinion. Squats load the legs while also training the entire abdominal/lower back region simultaneously. This builds real world, ďfunctionalĒ strength. You canít get the same effect from pistols and split squats.

Furthermore, most single leg work is dangerous when done for low reps and will place far greater stress on your knees than the back squat will.

(Note from me, Bend the Bar - AKA MAB - Thanks Jason, my point exactly)

A balls out, heavy triple on split squats is a hip flexor tear waiting to happen. A double on a step up seems a little risky to me. So out goes CNS stimulation and maximal strength work.

The back squat transfers greatly to running speed and jumping ability as has been demonstrated many times before.

(Note from me, Bend the Bar - AKA MAB - Thanks Jason, my point exactly)

It trains the core more effectively than almost anything else, provides spinal loading and enhances your overall strength from head to toe. A step up doesnít do that.

Now, thatís not to say there is no place for unilateral work, as you could easily throw it in after squatting. But itís supplementary to squats, not in replace of. Many coaches argue that single leg work is necessary here because sports involve the transference of power from one leg to another, blah, blah, blah. Thatís irrefutable but Iím not sure how much of an impact a few sets of split squats after your max effort squats are really having. I still use single leg exercises but I could easily make the argument that all you need to do is squat and go home. As long as you are also, jumping, running and doing agility work at some point during the week, you may not need much more than that in the weight room. And thatís not just a guess because Iíve done it with guys before.

Another thing to consider, if you train athletes for a living, is that many of them will be getting tested on the back squat when they report to camp. So even if you hate it you had better know how to coach it and get strong on it.

Finally, and of critical importance in my opinion, is that squats create a training atmosphere and an attitude that could never, ever be matched by single leg work. Imagine your guys knowing that every Wednesday was Max Effort lower body day and screaming, ďYAY! We get to do a five rep max on split squats today! I canít wait for that.Ē

I can imagine nothing worse. Guys love to squat. Most of the guys I have trained LIVE to squat. Itís a big, bad ass, fun exercise that you can pile plates on and get all fired up for with some smelling salts and head butts and just get fucking nuts. When guys squat heavy weights they excited. And when they do it all offseason they develop a chip on their shoulder and a ďfuck youĒ attitude that makes them a force when they walk into camp.

This aint happening with lunges.

So it would suck for the atmosphere of your gym and your business and the guys would be missing out on countless benefits.

Thatís why thereís not a shot in hell Iíll be cutting out back squats any time soon.

I suggest you follow suit.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:22 PM   #12
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At least I know the points I made in my earlier posts leave me in good company. Maybe I'm wrong, but I like the idiots surrounding me.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:26 PM   #13
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A revealing quote, that falls in line with my first point. I don't know Boyle, but could smell an e-book hypemaster 10 miles away.

Myles Kantor Interviews Mike Boyle | Powerlifting Watch

Quote:
I rarely post on any forum. But this article has me pretty upset as I know the background behind Mike Boyle's reasons for doing this interview. Boyle was one of the first internet gurus. He is a master at marketing himself. The ability for trainers who have the total experence of a graduate assitant who now write article after article claiming to be a "highly national sought out strength coach" most of them spend the day training high school athletes. Boyle helped pave the way for these guys.

About 3 years ago Boyle began to realize a lot of athletic strength coaches were beginning to listen and read articles by the Louie Simmons, Dave Tates, Jim Wendlers, Mark Rippetoe which goes against his entire functional circus act training garbage craze he helped create. He actualy preaches athletes should not even back squat "its to dangerous". Basically Boyle produces a functionally soft athlete.

As a powerlifter and a strength coach at a division 1 university, I have heard Boyle speak at several seminars. Trust me the guy has a hidden business agenda against powerlifting and big three type strength coaches. His entire business revolves around a thought process of functional athletic training. Getting a guy bigger, faster, stronger would hurt this guys business. Take what he is saying with a grain of salt.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:27 PM   #14
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Mike Boyle on Louie Simmons:

Quote:
I heard Mike Boyle speak at a seminar and stated "Louie Simmons is nothing more than a gas station attendant pumping his guys full of gas. He methods do not work - drugs do."

These were his exact words. I should note he was not asked about Louie. This was built into his presentation.

This was also a pretty big seminar. I have no idea what he agenda is but to trash anyone in a public setting shows very low character.
"Louie Simmons is nothing more than a gas station attendant pumping his guys full of gas. He methods do not work - drugs do."
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:39 PM   #15
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Mike Boyle's physique:

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Old 12-06-2009, 10:58 PM   #16
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Interesting just been reading through this thread and I gotta agree with ya BB.

To say that they are a lower back exercise does not strike me as a complete truth.

My hammies and thighs burn like mad on low weight high rep squats, I think as stated earlier in the thread it's to get people talking and hype this stuff.

I will not stop my back squats!

His physique looks weak but looks can be deceiving.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Mike Boyle on Louie Simmons:



"Louie Simmons is nothing more than a gas station attendant pumping his guys full of gas. He methods do not work - drugs do."
thats some utter horse shit, Boyle needs to get his head out of his ass. Another thing functional and fitness are two of the most over used/ misused words in lifting. so all the functional trainers and fitness dipshits can bite my ass
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:48 PM   #18
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As far as I am concerned everylift is a lower back lift, but to say your don't workout your legs when you squat is just dumb, maybe to say squats for reps are better then one max effort squats for leg strength, or that lower depths are better then high squats, or that front squats maybe be more beneficial then back squats, but w.e. don't listen to anyone but your body and just lift some fucking weights and everything will be fine rofl.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:54 PM   #19
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I want to mention that I am not posting his picture to poke fun at him, nor am I posting the quotes to jab at him. I am merely providing pieces to the puzzle so everyone can get a bigger picture.

It was nice to see my points validated. Especially by respected names. But ego aside, lifters have to be cautious. I've formed my opinions on years of gym experience. I don't have a degree in the same sense that Boyle doesn't have a yoke. We both have our weaknesses.

When I squat, it's "lift hips out of the hole" and "follow through with hip thrust forward." Squats, from my personal experience, are a hamstring and hip exercise. Sure, weak abs and a weak back can come into play.

But most heavy squatters don't have a weak back or abs!
Why? The squat made them stronger.

In fact, my back is strong as hell. My strongest bodypart. And I would bet my left nut that the reason for this is due to years of heavy squatting. I never deadlifted until 2007. Nor did I ever do any direct lower back work.

Also, after years of heavy squatting, my functional strength was insane. In the military I was the fastest sprinter on the base. Before college, I was a fat ass slug who couldn't outrun a slug.

Before college, I was a typical 20 inch vert white boy. After 8 months of squatting, my vert was insane. It was so good that when I came back home, my friends were shocked. They started to force me into playing center at 5'10".

Personally, I don't really give a damn about "functional strength." I lift because I like to lift. But just because I don't study up on functional strength doesn't mean I'm ignorant. If heavy squatting can turn me into a blazing sprinter and a vertical leaping fool, all in 3 to 4 sets a week, I believe it is a functional strength masterpiece of an exercise.

Squats also have the benefits of anabolism, joint and tendon strengtheners, and they sure as heck seem to promote a stronger bone density.

Boyle can keep his theories. And I have to get this off my chest...and it's not meant to be cruel...but if a guy looks like he can't squat more then 200 pounds, should he be the one preaching against the exercise? It's no different then William The Refrigerator Perry telling us how bad high impact aerobics are for your joints.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodybygamma View Post
As far as I am concerned everylift is a lower back lift, but to say your don't workout your legs when you squat is just dumb, maybe to say squats for reps are better then one max effort squats for leg strength, or that lower depths are better then high squats, or that front squats maybe be more beneficial then back squats, but w.e. don't listen to anyone but your body and just lift some fucking weights and everything will be fine rofl.
"don't listen to anyone but your body and just lift some fucking weights"

And that's the ballgame folks...
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