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Old 12-07-2009, 12:56 AM   #21
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i saw his little excerpt from his seminar about this whole thing..and i was blown away. Also, after reading some of the other posts it's crazy the crap Mike said about Louie..but Rip is write just stay calm and all of this with soon disappear, just keep doing what you guys are doing
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Old 12-07-2009, 01:20 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
"don't listen to anyone but your body and just lift some fucking weights"

And that's the ballgame folks...
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Old 12-07-2009, 02:59 AM   #23
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Μy opinion (I did not read the link).
The Squat is mostly a glute exercise (hip movement), and hits also good the lower back, the quads and the hams.
It's up to which version you wanna do and which version does fit or apply to your body type.
If you do them olympic style, in a more vertical fashion, it emphasizes more the quads.
If you do them with hip drive (Rippetoe style) or powerlifting style, it emphasizes more on the posterior chain, and in the posterior chain belongs the glutes, lower back and hams.
That does not mean that any kind of them, leaves the other muscles not so emphasized out of the game.

I have long thigh bones in relation with torso, an for me matches better the hip drive style with the bar low on traps, but I can also do the more vertical version like the olympic squats and with the bar high in the traps, but this is hurting my knees more easily.
I believe it is better for me to do hip drive Squats, because they uses much force from the posterior chain, especially glutes and lower back, which are for me the most powerfull muscles and the base/foundation of the body, and everything starts from there.

As well, I think lower back and glutes belongs to lower body or from there you can say begins the lower body and also that begins the upper body, or better said, if I use a training split to upper and lower body, I put glutes and lower back to lower body.
Because in most basic exercises like squats, deads, goodmornings etc, glutes, lower back and hams, work together like a chain, if you know what I mean.

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Old 12-07-2009, 05:08 AM   #24
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I agree that squatting, especially the full squat is a good exercise for the lower back. I also agree that lower back can be a limiting factor in the squat sometimes, especially for folks with a weak back.

HOWEVER, it is not just a lower back exercise, it is a lower body exercise that happens to hit the lower back hard as well. This is like saying that deadlift is a grip exercise and not a lower back exercise for some, since for some, the grip fails earlier than the lower back, or its like saying that bench is a delt exercise and not a pec exercise and so on ...

For heaven's sake, these exercises are known as COMPOUND exercises for a reason - they hit multiple muscle groups. The squat is not lower back OR lower body, it is lower back AND lower body.

Here's the opinion of someone who does know what he is talking about - The Squat routine with Arnold Schwarzenegger

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Old 12-07-2009, 08:13 AM   #25
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Default Squats are not dead!

BTB, has pretty much stated my arguement, so I won't go into another long diatribe, except to say. I cannot believe that this is even a question to be debated. There is simply no other movement that brings to the table the total affect that performing squats can do. The one possible cousin to squats would have to be deadlifts.

Whether or not Olympic lifters use back squats varies. Several countries do use back squats as part of there training programs to increase strength. Several Countries primarily just do the lifts. Within Olympic lifting there is as big a divide on how to train, as there is in BB, between splits, and wholebody training.

There are various ways to perform the backsquat. Utlizing those various fashions of squats gives you a powerful tools to use in your development.
Posterier chain strength cannot be underestimated in it's importance to overall body strength. Especially in regards to standing pressing moves, which in my opinion are not given the importance they deserve. Then there is the issue of bent rowing. You simply must have good posterier chain strength to build your bent rows to a decent level of weight.


So far as I'm concerned, Mr. Boyle is smoking crack.
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Old 12-07-2009, 08:31 AM   #26
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Whether or not Olympic lifters use back squats varies. Several countries do use back squats as part of there training programs to increase strength. Several Countries primarily just do the lifts. Within Olympic lifting there is as big a divide on how to train, as there is in BB, between splits, and wholebody training.
I was going to mention this point. Many Russian lifters use the back squat.

Vasili Alexeyev did. And he mentions in interviews that other Russians did. Vasili Alexeyev focused less on super heavy squatting then other Russians, but still used 600 pounds in training regularly.
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Old 12-07-2009, 08:36 AM   #27
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I didn't mean to say you were long winded BTB. I thought you stated the points the way I felt as well. After reading it again, it may not of come of the way I intended.

It may have just been easier to say, regarding your post,

"Yea! What he said".
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Old 12-07-2009, 08:54 AM   #28
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I didn't mean to say you were long winded BTB. I thought you stated the points the way I felt as well. After reading it again, it may not of come of the way I intended.

It may have just been easier to say, regarding your post,

"Yea! What he said".
I was long winded

This sort of nonsense really gets under my skin:

A) Because I know the marketing tactic. It's link bait shock marketing. And Boyle is a master at it. I don't like mixing e-book/huckster marketing BS with my training. It's agenda is cash. Mine is strength and muscle.

B) It lacks common sense.

C) Functional strength often involves crazy, silly exercises and dangerous training practices such as unstable training. It does not get any more irresponsible then doing squats or overhead presses on a stability ball.

D) Boyle - quite honestly - looks incredibly frail. Rippetoe looks like he chews tin cans. Simmons looks like he spits iron. Even Bob from the Biggest looks like he is strong with bodyweight exercises. I have serious doubts that Boyle has any degree of personal experience with any form of heavy squatting. Without the knowledge that comes from personal experience, his perspective is weakened.

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Old 12-07-2009, 09:03 AM   #29
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The squat is not a lower back exercise. We all know this. If anything, it hits the hamstrings hardest. Anyone who's ever had a rough squat day knows this to be true.

And it's only a lower back exercise for someone who is a beginner and has no clue what they're doing.

To address AC's point...

"I'm seriously contemplating the neccessity of back squats for athletes as far as muscular development is concerned."

I couldn't disagree more. The back squat is a proven anabolic tool, and provides the fastest anabolic nudge out of any exercise. If you really want to slow your growth the fastest, remove squats.

The front squat is good for lower back strength and deadlift training, but is not a strong mass building exercise. I consider it primarily a strength building exercise.

And the RFE squat? For mass? It's worse then the lunge on the knees. In my opinion, it's almost as ridiculous as someone squatting on a ball. I mean no disrespect AC, but I do strongly disagree with you.
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During college my vert went up nearly a foot from back squats.

I really didn't read his spiel. If it's for athletes...then, I know nothing about training for a sport. I do know that with heavy weight, my vert went through the rough and so did the ability to hit a baseball a mile

Maybe I am misunderstanding AC...are you saying muscular development isn't needed for athletes? If so, I can see dropping back squats. But I do not think there is a better exercise for increasing many aspects of sports, including the jumping ability.

I went from 6 inches shy of the rim to nearly dunking after one year of heavy squats.

So, for the most part we are in agreement in everything you said. No way do I think back squats are a bad thing. They will most definitely be in just about any routine I make except for the ones I already mentioned.

However, for athletic development, I think plain jane back squats are unneccessary. I think box squats and safety bar squats are useful and definitely have their place.

As for mass....

No, athlete's don't need "mass". They need to be strong as all fuck and if mass follows strength, then eventually they'll get big. Look at WR's and DB's that play in the NFL at 185lb. You think they're doing back squats to get mass? Doubt it.

RFE for mass? Hell no. RFE for high weight/low reps? Absolutely not. But athlete's play their game one foot at a time and usually have horrible hip mobility. Show me another lower body lift where athlete's get the same bang for their buck.

"Back squats are a posterior chain movement"

Yes, they certainly are. But are they the most efficient when you've only got 12 weeks to work with an athlete? Probably not. Also, football is an extremely quad dominant sport. Hence, the utilization of front squats.

"Heavy back squats made my vert go through the roof"

Absolutely....if you've never done them before. However, take me as an example. I had been squatting "heavy" for several years before taking up O-lifts. My vert prior had been nothing spectacular. As a 5'9 white dude, I could barely knick the rim with my middle finger. Add in O-lifts (and yes, RFE squats) and I can stand under the rim and hang on it from a vertical leap with two hands.

My point is that back squats are not evil. Much the opposite. As I said earlier and again in this post, they will remain in my programming for mental toughness and because any athlete I know WILL be tested on them. I just don't think they're essential to athletic development.

Athlete's need to be strong, absolutely, but they do not/should not lift as a recreational lifter lifting "just cuz they like to".
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:06 AM   #30
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Without the knowledge that comes from personal experience, his perspective is weakened.
This is NOT a dig on you, but this quote is basically what I am trying to say about you in the form of training athletes.

Until you've been an athlete and trained like an athlete, how do you know what works for an athlete?

I know we're all "athletes" in the strength game being that we are all training for a specific purpose and goal in mind, but I think we all know that by me saying "athlete", it means someone out on the field/court/course/whatever competing in their respective sports.
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