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Old 12-23-2012, 02:55 AM   #1
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Default Too much lower back work?

I am currently doing 5/3/1. I started cycle 8 this week. I decided to program Power cleans into my programs for a couple reasons. 1.) I wanted to train my ability to explode and 2.) I am (not so) secretly obsessed with having huge traps.

Wendler recommends doing the Power Cleans on Squat day, before squating. He also recommends programming them with the 5/3/1 protocol.

I power clean squat second workout day of the week. First day being OHP.

On PC and Squat day, I also did good mornings.

Today, on workout day 4 of the week I did deads and I just felt flat. Relatively "light" weights felt heavy. And I ended up tweeking my lower back pretty badly.


Questions:
Is it safe to say I am probably doing too much work that involves my lower back? And my lower back simply can not recover?
If this is the case, what should I drop? The good mornings are the obvious answer in my eyes, but will I get enough hamstring work if I don't include the GMs?
Just looking for a little bit of advice and insight. Thanks.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:07 AM   #2
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Don't have the experience of many on here. But I dumped GMs from my 5/3/1. I added power shrugs and love them. I've never had an exercise hammer my traps so good. I get more ham work on squat day, I squat, leg press, then leg curls for hams. So you could always add those in somewhere, or SLDL. Just a thought, hope your back heals quick big man!
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:22 AM   #3
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If this is ya first week,maybe it just needs time.

Wendlers smarter than I am,but I couldn't handle squats after GMs,had to do em first.

Gah,I hate "advising" more experienced lifters. I hope it works out Josh.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:04 AM   #4
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I think it'll depend entirely on how you lift. Particularly how you Squat.

If you squat in a very lower back/hip dominant way then you may run into issues. Unfortunately it's one of those, "what works for you" questions imo. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

However if you do indeed squat very posterior heavy, then I daresay the GMs weren't adding much anyway.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:30 AM   #5
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I would try to go really light on pc's and grove into it, starting with something like 50% and focus on speed rather than weight for a while to get used to it together with your other work.

When I started to clean/snatch I did it as a warmup before my main work on every session and I used something like 90-110lbs on the bar just to get into grove and get started up for the heavy lifts.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:00 AM   #6
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Hope the back heals quickly.

How heavy did you start the new lift? I tend to start any new lift with really easy weights.

Did you start with a rep max? Every time Wendler has two main lifts using the 5/3/1 progression, one of the lifts is "required reps only".

Everything is individual; for me, I'd treat the Cleans as an added assistance lift. So, I'd either drop one of the one's I was already doing (GMs in this case) or limit it for a while. Throwing an extra 6 sets into a workout is a pretty big change to get used to and it may take a while. I think I would have done like Big Swede said, start really light, treat it like a warm-up exercise, and do it before the squats and deadlifts. Then as I became accustomed to the new exercise I'd start programming it with 5/3/1 required reps only. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:27 AM   #7
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Thanks for all the great replies. There were some really good points made that I think were helpful.
And thanks to everyone who wished me a speedy back recovery. It's been sore, especially in the AM, but I was able to OHP today. Tomorrow will be the real test when I attempt to squat. I am not sure what to expect, but I will err on the side of caution if there is any pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
Hope the back heals quickly.

How heavy did you start the new lift? I tend to start any new lift with really easy weights.

Did you start with a rep max? Every time Wendler has two main lifts using the 5/3/1 progression, one of the lifts is "required reps only".
.
I started the new lift at 90% of my 1rm as recommended with a new lift when doing 5/3/1.
And I will be doing only required reps.


Based on the replies, I am thinking of three options:
1.) Instead of doing GMs on squat day do them on deadlift day.
2.)Instead of doing GMs, do SLDLs and do them on deadlift day.
3.) Drop the GMs all together.

Right now I'm leaning towards just dropping them. A great point was made that I can't add a whole other exercise and not drop something else. That along with a few experienced guys who said they don't do them for the same reason.
However, I still am somewhat concerned that I will not be getting enough hamstring work. Although maybe I shouldn't be....
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:38 AM   #8
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Good mornings always did that to me. That's why I dropped doing them regularly.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehubbard View Post
Good mornings always did that to me. That's why I dropped doing them regularly.
Right there with you.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Questions:
Is it safe to say I am probably doing too much work that involves my lower back? And my lower back simply can not recover?
If this is the case, what should I drop? The good mornings are the obvious answer in my eyes, but will I get enough hamstring work if I don't include the GMs?
Just looking for a little bit of advice and insight. Thanks.
1. I guess that depends on your weights used and how much you can allow yourself to recover throughout the week. Personally I spent several months hammering my entire back with 531 and then my own thing based off of 531. I only began to see problems when I let my sleep and eating go down and then ultimately I got pretty sick. So, it depends on how much you can allow yourself to recover.

2. You probably will get plenty without, but I am not the most experienced lifter. I did not do power cleans very often on 531, (and if I did, I also did them after squats.) and I just did good mornings on deadlift day.

I think my 531 days went something like:

Monday: Squats, Pause Squats, Front Squats, or RDL's depending on which I wanted to focus on in that cycle. There were some where I just did Squats, pauses, and fronts.(I don't know if I'd recommend 45 minutes of squatting, but it was fun. All that mattered to me)

Wednesday: Normal bench stuff. Then plenty of upper back work.

Friday: Deadlifts, goodmornings, ab woork.

Saturday: Press, back work, press assistance, and then some arms...and more upper back work.

Running basically that, and later doing my own progression modifications on it, I saw great results over a period of almost a year. I think I ran 531 strictly for 7 or 8 months. Hopefully that is some insight for you. By your stats by your username, your lifting experience may cause you to have to do something much different, but this worked for me.
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