Muscle and Brawn Forums

Muscle and Brawn Forums (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/index.php)
-   Powerlifting & Strength Training (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=36)
-   -   Stronglifts and Starting Strength (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10773)

70sBB 08-04-2012 12:02 AM

Stronglifts and Starting Strength
 
How does Stronglifts compare to Starting Strength? They seem similar, so are they about a coin flip?

BendtheBar 08-04-2012 12:22 AM

The 3 substantial differences that prevent me from being a fan of Stronglifts over Starting Strength are:

1) Too much squat volume. I believe Stronglifts has 15 working sets per week. I don't, in any way, believe this is necessary for beginners looking to build strength and muscle.

2) Diet. As far as I know the Stronglifts' website is also focused on losing fat while building strength and muscle. If you are looking to build raw strength and muscle, the extra calories from Starting Strength will take you there more quickly.

3) Mediocrity. I believe that the Stronglift community standards are rather mediocre compared to the strength standards detailed by Mark Rippetoe. I spent time on the Stronglift forum back in the day and I don't recall many 300 squats or 400 deadlifts. I just think in general the expectations are lower because of the community base, no offense meant, certainly. It's just a younger, less experienced community.

Please correct me if I am off the mark on any of these points.

Kyle Aaron 08-04-2012 06:37 AM

The main difference is 3-9 weeks before certain lifts are reached.

Both are alternating with 3 workouts a week.

SL is work sets of,
(A) SQ 5x5, BP 5x5, RW 5x5
(B) SQ 5x5, OHP 5x5, DL 5x1
Thus, 37-41 work sets or 185-205 work reps a week.

This contrasts with SS 2nd edition,
(A) SQ 5x3, BP 5x3, DL 5x1
(B) SQ 5x3, OHP 5x3, PC 3x5
Thus, 25-29 work sets or 115-125 work reps a week.

So that SS has 56-68% the overall work volume of SL.

However, it should be noted that while SS2e has you start with a weight where "the bar has started slowing" and deload after a third session stalling, SL (in its last public edition, anyway) had you start with the empty bar, and change to 5x3 after your first stall.

A typical newbie to barbell training will have a "bar has started slowing" of 30-80kg (lower end for lighter deconditioned females, middle for males or females who've been doing sports, higher for larger males doing sports). Let's split the difference and call it 55kg, and assume a person in a 60-80kg bodyweight range.

With SL starting them on 20kg, the person is going to have no trouble doing 5x5 for a while; adding 2.5kg a workout, it will take 14 workouts or 5 weeks to reach the 55kg SS would have had them starting with. By this stage the person will of course be stronger. Both lifters with ordinary rest and nutrition will probably stall for the first time around 90kg, give or take 10kg. As noted, SS will have you deload, and SL have you drop two work sets and change to 5x3.

Thus, SL and SS have you get to the same place in the end, it just takes longer with SL because of Mehdi's insistence on your starting with the empty bar. This insistence comes about from the simple fact of coaching experience. Mehdi assumes that the lifters he's advising are as clueless as him and will have no real coach - so they need to start easy and take time to get the form right. Rip assumes people are self-motivated and will seek knowledge, and have a competent coach somewhere around if not during each workout - so they can start a bit harder.

In terms of online resources, SS has many free articles and videos, and questions can be asked of Rip freely; SL has a few free articles which you can get if you give him your email so he can spam you, and to get access to the forum you must pay so you can get the advice of people squatting a 20kg plate or two a side. As well, the single Mehdi offers relationship advice in his forums.

BtB is correct that SL is focused on teh abz.

big_swede 08-04-2012 11:46 AM

Quote:

In terms of online resources, SS has many free articles and videos, and questions can be asked of Rip freely; SL has a few free articles which you can get if you give him your email so he can spam you, and to get access to the forum you must pay so you can get the advice of people squatting a 20kg plate or two a side. As well, the single Mehdi offers relationship advice in his forums.
Made me laugh :)

Kyle Aaron 08-04-2012 06:14 PM

I should add that while Mehdi's book is free once you give up your email to his spam, and contains basic information on carrying out the lifts, Rip's book you pay for, but it's EXTREMELY detailed on the lifts, with physics and biomechanics explained. If you just want to get under the bar and lift it won't make any difference, but if you're the sort who likes to educate themselves, or are a PT or coach, it'll be very useful.

thumpinos 08-04-2012 08:34 PM

I watched Mehdi's squat form and wasn't very impressed. Didn't seem very upright and I couldn't set that side by side with his article on staying upright in the squat without scratching my head.

bamazav 08-05-2012 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 265344)
3) Mediocrity. I believe that the Stronglift community standards are rather mediocre compared to the strength standards detailed by Mark Rippetoe. I spent time on the Stronglift forum back in the day and I don't recall many 300 squats or 400 deadlifts. I just think in general the expectations are lower because of the community base, no offense meant, certainly. It's just a younger, less experienced community.

Please correct me if I am off the mark on any of these points.

an interesting point that I had not considered. The emphasis in SL is getting squats, primarily, to 1.5 of body weight. At that point, from what I read, you are encouraged to move to other strength routines.

Davis 08-06-2012 12:44 PM

I did SL 5x5 for 8 months and I loved it. I didn't start everything out at the bar. I went up to 95 lb 5x5 on the squat my first day and I think 100 on the bench. The first deadlift and press day I was at 135 1x5 for deads and 65 5x5 on the press. I lack training experience(only two years) so I don't know if SL could have been better, but it worked great for me. It worked great for a few others too I know that. I've never thought the 5x5 squats was too much volume until I reached around 240 lbs and went to 3x5 eventually to 1x5... The SL articles on how to perform the movements were decent and enough to get a beginner going in the right track, but nothing huge. I haven't read all of SS, but it has much more detail on the lifts.

As for the community, I've never spent any time in the SS community. Before Mehdi decided he wanted his ass wiped because of all the great he had done and decided to charge for access to his forums, I was there a decent bit. I got advice from a few of the strong members, and from a dude named Jake. He was my age and did some good things with his lifting. However, most of the community was full of older members and people who hadn't been lifting long- like myself(well, I'm young) Some of the advice I got was great, but it was rarely anything ground breaking looking back on it. It was mainly average lifters(where I'd say I am now) trying to offer advice to beginning lifters(where I was). They proved helpful, but it's not the kind of advice you might get from Dave Tate which is to be expected.

Onto the diet, I am glad for Mehdi's get strong, lose fat approach even if it was something I've never really needed at this point in my life. Being the vain, young, dumb, kid I am, getting too fat just for extra pounds and muscle hasn't been my idea of building a good physique. It's no one's. Yet, on some websites, the "eat, eat, eat, eat..." advice offered is often misread by a lot of people. I was one of them, but I followed the advice I read on SL by Mehdi and the community and have managed to stay lean. (Although, I think fat, muscular people look freakin awesome and I wouldn't mind looking like that in 5 or 6 years).

I don't know if this is what OP was asking for, but I'm just going off of BTB's points. SL has potential to be great if you're young I believe.

austin.j.taylor 08-06-2012 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 265344)
The 3 substantial differences that prevent me from being a fan of Stronglifts over Starting Strength are:

1) Too much squat volume. I believe Stronglifts has 15 working sets per week. I don't, in any way, believe this is necessary for beginners looking to build strength and muscle.

2) Diet. As far as I know the Stronglifts' website is also focused on losing fat while building strength and muscle. If you are looking to build raw strength and muscle, the extra calories from Starting Strength will take you there more quickly.

3) Mediocrity. I believe that the Stronglift community standards are rather mediocre compared to the strength standards detailed by Mark Rippetoe. I spent time on the Stronglift forum back in the day and I don't recall many 300 squats or 400 deadlifts. I just think in general the expectations are lower because of the community base, no offense meant, certainly. It's just a younger, less experienced community.

Please correct me if I am off the mark on any of these points.

You hit the nail on the head with this post. I almost always recommend people to begin at starting strength. Reading the starting strength book at least 2 times is probably the most important thing a beginner strength athlete can do. I will advocate to people to run SS for a few months then jump over to SL 5X5 to break up some staleness, then a move to either madcows or BS 5X5. There is what a solid first 2 years of programming would look like if I had the access and availability to start training adolescent strength atheletes.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.