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Old 10-22-2009, 08:40 AM   #11
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Here is my perspective. Remember, I'm no doctor.

CNS Burnout: When the body plateaus or regresses due to extreme heavy loading without the proper rest or nutrition

Overtraining: When the ligaments, tendons, joints, bones and/or skeletal muscle become damaged due to overworking. This doesn't require extreme loading. Hence marathons and such

Rebuttle?
comments?

This is a great thread
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwys61 View Post
Here is my perspective. Remember, I'm no doctor.

CNS Burnout: When the body plateaus or regresses due to extreme heavy loading without the proper rest or nutrition I agree.

Overtraining: When the ligaments, tendons, joints, bones and/or skeletal muscle become damaged due to overworking. This doesn't require extreme loading. Hence marathons and such I would also add true muscular failure...which is hard to achieve.

Rebuttle?
comments?

This is a great thread
See the bold above.

In general, I believe that what we perceive as "overtraining" is actually CNS burnout.

I also think it's laughable how some of you think that CNS and muscularity are mutually exclusive. They are absolutely dependant on eachother. I will go as far to say that your CNS controls your gains.

My guess is that the iBodybuilder program over at T-nation is built around conditioning your CNS in order to produce optimal muscle performance. Once you have stimulated your CNS and muscles enough and hormones begin to flow, you stop for the day to let yourself (CNS) recover. In essence, they are trying to time the peaks of the CNS, musculoskeletal, and hormonal outputs. Creating "the perfect storm" for muscle growth.


One of the original questions, what do I think degrades CNS performance?
Time under tension - That could mean slow reps, negatives, reps completed once in a fatigued state, etc.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthleteCreator View Post

I also think it's laughable how some of you think that CNS and muscularity are mutually exclusive. They are absolutely dependant on eachother. I will go as far to say that your CNS controls your gains.
Don't buy that, so laugh at me. (BTW, just want to make sure that you understand my tone isn't sarcastic or argumentative. I simply disagree)

CNS fatigue can prevent proper firing of muscles, but I don't believe you have to kill yourself and your CNS to achieve slow, steady strength and muscle gains...especially as a beginning trainee.
Beginning lifters make most of their strength and muscle gains the first couple years. These gains are fast and easy, when training correctly.

I'm no CNS expert, but I really don't believe much CNS conditioning is required.

And I may be completely nuts, but I believe that CNS conditioning becomes more of a concern AFTER these initial gains, when the body draws closer to its natural strength and size limits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AthleteCreator View Post
My guess is that the iBodybuilder program over at T-nation is built around conditioning your CNS in order to produce optimal muscle performance.
Ouch.

Loaded Insulin Surges???

High-Threshold Hypertrophy (HTH)???

...and, and all supplement diet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AthleteCreator View Post
One of the original questions, what do I think degrades CNS performance?
Time under tension - That could mean slow reps, negatives, reps completed once in a fatigued state, etc.
You really lost me here. Powerlifters have the least amount of TUT, yet the most CNS concerns.
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Last edited by BendtheBar; 10-28-2009 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:26 PM   #14
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I forgot to mention that Thib's claims are complete bull. Which leaves me not caring too much for the I Bodybuilder program.

Quote:
Christian gained 27 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks, and was doing seated overhead presses with 375 pound for 5 cluster reps. Christian is already an advanced-level bodybuilder, and in his best condition prior to starting the program.

Sebastien gained 20 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks and added 100 pounds to his front squat, while cutting body fat for the bodybuilding contest.

Kevin is another advanced bodybuilder who’s on the program, but he’s not currently preparing for a contest. Kevin gained 24 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks, while losing 14 pounds of fat and adding 50 pounds to his bench press.
From Dr. Casey Butt:

Quote:
"Actually, not only am I impressed by Thibaudeau's pre-Anaconda claim of being 5'9" tall and 215 lbs @ 7% bf, which is about the same height, weight and condition that Mike Mentzer competed at in the late 1970s (but with drugs), but now, since he's added 27 pounds more muscle on top of that, his pressing deserves some kudos too.

According to Biotest, Thibaudeau can do 5 reps of seated overhead presses with 375 lbs with a few seconds rest between reps. Not bad when you consider that Paul Anderson, weighing 304 lbs, won the Olympic Gold medal in 1956 with just a 369-pound overhead press. Of course, there will be slight differences between the seated and standing version, but Thibaudeau could have repped Anderson's weight. Also Doug Hepburn, weighing 299 lbs, set the world record in 1954 when he pressed 380 pounds. Thibaudeau probably could have gotten a few reps with that too.

Eventually Anderson brought the press record up to 409 pounds and steroids took over from there. Given Thibaudeau can do 375 x 5 with rest-pauses, he might be good for a 409 single as well - not bad considering he's well over 100 pounds lighter than Anderson when he set that record.

Of course, smaller pre-drug era lifters, like 2-time Olympic Gold medalist and 27-time World Record holder Tommy Kono, only handled baby weights like Kono's career-best 349.4 pounds when he broke the middle heavyweight world record, weighing 198 pounds. Thibaudeau would probably use that on a medium day, or for high-rep sets, or maybe if he didn't get much sleep the night before or something.

Come to think of it, Thibaudeau's Canadian, and the winning Clean & Jerk in the 207-231 lb weight class at the 2009 Canadian Senior Weightlifting Championships was only 355 pounds. Thibaudeau can press more than that on a light day. Now that he's one of the strongest drug-free men in history at his bodyweight, he should certainly consider reviving his Olympic Weightlifting career and winning all those Canadian titles that he didn't win back when he was actually competing."
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:28 PM   #15
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I would like to suggest an experiment. One that has you both overtraining and taxing your CNS, with minimal TUT.

Here goes: Take 80% of your deadlift 1RM. Now, perform 40 reps, rest pause. Take 10-30 seconds to recover from each rep before the next.

If you CAN get past 20 reps, you're a stud. If you get to 40 reps you're into overtraining and taxing the CNS.

This is a moderate volume of weight, and the total TUT for all reps is only about 3 minutes.

This experiment shines a light on the reality that taxing the CNS can come from nearly any training style, and that it is not solely dependent on weight, intensity or TUT.

I believe we can curbs ALL training variables so that we don't tax the CNS, not overtrain, and still gain strength and muscle. If you shorten rest between sets, you need to curbs sets. If you add volume of sets, you need to curb weight and/or add rest.

Just thinking out loud, and not proclaiming that this is the gospel. Trying to encourage thought on this issue.
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:29 PM   #16
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Aye-yae-yae (is that you spell that? lol). I think we're actually saying/arguing the same point, but maybe I didn't do well trying to explain it. Let's see if I can clean this up in 200 words or less...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
Don't buy that, so laugh at me.

CNS fatigue can prevent proper firing of muscles, but I don't believe you have to kill yourself and your CNS to achieve slow, steady strength and muscle gains...especially as a beginning trainee.
Beginning lifters make most of their strength and muscle gains the first couple years. These gains are fast and easy, when training correctly.

I'm no CNS expert, but I really don't believe much CNS conditioning is required.

And I may be completely nuts, but I believe that CNS conditioning becomes more of a concern AFTER these initial gains, when the body draws closer to its natural strength and size limits.
What I was trying to say is that your CNS controls how many muscle fibers are allowed to fire at one time. I excluded beginners in my argument (and didn't tell you that, I guess; again, ha ha ha ha) because you are correct, their gains will most certainly be muscular.

Your argument is based on beginners; my argument was for intermediate to advanced people. Maybe "condition" was the wrong word to use too. How about "prime". As in, you need to prime the CNS as part of a good warm-up before you hit your working sets. So, if you're doing high rep stuff, you need to prime your CNS and get it ready to do high-rep working sets. Any better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post

Ouch.

Loaded Insulin Surges???

High-Threshold Hypertrophy (HTH)???

...and, and all supplement diet.

Yeah, I think they're blowing and ass ton of ass up people's asses with that program. Loaded insulin surges, supplements, blah blah blah blah, all just to get you to buy their shizzle. And, "high-threshold hypertrophy" is just a fancy marketing term they made up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
You really lost me here. Powerlifters have the least amount of TUT, yet the most CNS concerns.
I guess I could be wrong here (well, I could be wrong just about anywhere in this post ), but I also think there's two different types of CNS burnout. The first one is extended TUT, like I described before. The other one is when you've been consistently been doing reps at >90% for multiple sets. I kind of think of it as a shot of adrenaline. You can only produce so much adrenaline until you're out. Same with CNS. You can only hit it so much before it doesn't respond anymore. Once you're out, you're out.

Hope that helps and makes me sound less like I don't know what I'm talking about. lol
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by AthleteCreator View Post
Aye-yae-yae (is that you spell that? lol). I think we're actually saying/arguing the same point, but maybe I didn't do well trying to explain it. Let's see if I can clean this up in 200 words or less...
I'm sure we are. I know you're an intelligent guy. And this is a confusing subject I'm headed out on vacation. Be back soon to talk more.
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:33 PM   #18
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What you said here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
I would like to suggest an experiment. One that has you both overtraining and taxing your CNS, with minimal TUT.

Here goes: Take 80% of your deadlift 1RM. Now, perform 40 reps, rest pause. Take 10-30 seconds to recover from each rep before the next.

If you CAN get past 20 reps, you're a stud. If you get to 40 reps you're into overtraining and taxing the CNS.

This is a moderate volume of weight, and the total TUT for all reps is only about 3 minutes.

This experiment shines a light on the reality that taxing the CNS can come from nearly any training style, and that it is not solely dependent on weight, intensity or TUT.

I believe we can curbs ALL training variables so that we don't tax the CNS, not overtrain, and still gain strength and muscle. If you shorten rest between sets, you need to curbs sets. If you add volume of sets, you need to curb weight and/or add rest.

Just thinking out loud, and not proclaiming that this is the gospel. Trying to encourage thought on this issue.
Is what I was trying to say here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthleteCreator View Post
I guess I could be wrong here (well, I could be wrong just about anywhere in this post ), but I also think there's two different types of CNS burnout. The first one is extended TUT, like I described before. The other one is when you've been consistently been doing reps at >90% for multiple sets. I kind of think of it as a shot of adrenaline. You can only produce so much adrenaline until you're out. Same with CNS. You can only hit it so much before it doesn't respond anymore. Once you're out, you're out.

Hope that helps and makes me sound less like I don't know what I'm talking about. lol


You said it MUCH better than me. haha.

Told you I wasn't explaining it well and that we were arguing the same thought process.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post

If you shorten rest between sets, you need to curbs sets. If you add volume of sets, you need to curb weight and/or add rest.
This is what I have found to be true.

By keeping my rest between sets as brief as possible, I get more work for less total sets.

This is sort of the same concept as why a sprinter has bigger legs as comapred to longer distance runner. Short and intense, or spread out.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:57 AM   #20
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Good read, but I'm not shure if I understand all of that you're talking (because English is not my mother language).

I have to agree with (taken from the conversation):
-I will go as far to say that your CNS controls your gains.
-your CNS controls how many muscle fibers are allowed to fire at one time.
-you need to prime the CNS as part of a good warm-up before you hit your working sets.


And something about this:
-I forgot to mention that Thib's claims are complete bull.

I have to say that, I read Thib, I follow and understand some recommendations/methods of his in training, and I had some decent gains again lately, after about 18 years of training and being 44 years old, like I was a beginner.
My training is mostly CNS based.
So I give a "thumbs up" to Thib.
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