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Nutrition, Diet and Supplements Discuss nutrition, diet, cutting and weight loss. Supplement discussions as well.

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Old 02-19-2012, 10:51 AM   #21
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Probably the greatest danger of trans fats is its effect in distorting cell membranes. This affects immunity, heart disease, diabetes and even brain function.

Butter Up Your ADHD Child for Better Brain Development

The Human Brain - Fats



Reducing fat in your diet is important if oare eating processed fats. Natural healthy fats don't appear to pose much of a problem. You need a healthy balance, but I don't see real food as the culprit here.

It appears to me that the gov't has done what it alswasy does. It got healthy eating all wrong by listening to educated idiots.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:13 AM   #22
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Alton Brown rocks!!

Lard and cracklins, looks good.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:28 AM   #23
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:52 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou72 View Post

It appears to me that the gov't has done what it alswasy does. It got healthy eating all wrong by listening to educated idiots.
Who should it listen to, then? Sally Fallon? The scientists that she quotes supporting her statements? The scientists who oppose her views? Uncle Bob down on the farm?


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Originally Posted by Violent Volume View Post
Watched the Sally Fallon video BTB and did some more research. I found this article.

Why Butter Is Better

.
The problem with posting videos and extensive quotes from Sally Fallon is that she's not really a credible source of information. She's president of the Weston A Price Foundation, who - among some sound ideas - promote all sorts of nonsense (Are they still promoting ingesting clay?). This is reflected in the quotes, which contain a mixture of information, disinformation and huge leaps in logic.

As an example of the latter, we have:

Premise 1: vitamin D is needed for good health
Premise 2: butter contains vitamin D
Conclusion: Eating butter is healthful

There's nothing wrong with the two premises, but using these to support the overall thrust of the argument (butter is healthful) isn't warranted. We need vitamin D, but we don't need to get it from butter. How much do we need? There's plenty of evidence that more definitely isn't better when it comes to fat soluble vitamins. And are the benefits of this vitamin D outweighed by other substances within butter that have a negative impact on health?

As an analogy, I could bolster the case for eating cardboard, based on the fact that it's an excellent source of fibre.

Oh, and as usual in these cases -Fallon attempts to conflate a mistrust of anything connected with 'the government' with the actual science.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:10 AM   #25
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I have to revert to my first post in this thread as my argument against any "pro-margarine" posters, and you can test it yourself. Flies, who eat shit all the time, will not land on a stick of margarine. Test any manufacturer's brand in any country and you will have a fly free stick of margarine every time.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:13 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou72 View Post
It appears to me that the gov't has done what it always does. It got healthy eating all wrong by listening to educated idiots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Who should it listen to, then? Sally Fallon? The scientists that she quotes supporting her statements? The scientists who oppose her views? Uncle Bob down on the farm?


The US Gov't choose to push forward with an agenda that was not supported by many with expertise in the field. Ancel Keys manipulated his data to support his claim. A lot of credible scientest called BS, but the Gov't pushed forward based on a few people who had the power, but little knowledge to set a course of action.

40 years later we are where we are today. Call me a Gov't conspiracy nut if thats what you need to think, but in the US, the Gov't is nothing but a good old boy club of back room deals, and quid pro quo. I have very little respect left for my Gov't, and how it treats the people as dumb sheep.

Truth be told, I think a lot of them are.

Of course it makes sense to limit fat in your diet when the fat you ingest is poisen to your body, and causing long term health effects. Natural fats don't cause the issues that these so caled healthy alternatives do.

Nobody has said that fat should be the main source of calories in your diet. What is being said is that natural fats are not the demons that the Gov't wants to make them out to be.

The whole fat free campaign in the US is total bullsh*it!

Don't eat fat, but fill up on processed grains, that is just asinine. The processed grain, and fake fats that make up what a lot of people eat in this country is the problem.

The Gov't says reduce your fat intake. Well, the fat most people eat is what was developed as being a healthier choice, when in fact it wasn't. So, in that sense it makes sense to limit how much poisen you ingest.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:43 AM   #27
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Our government has determined that ketchup is a vegetable and counts towards good nutrition in the schools. You know somewhere behind the scenes a lobbyist worked hard for this. This is how the American system works. Bills are passed with riders. A lot of crap slides through. There is also a lot of "you vote for this bill and I will support yours." It's the dark side of a democracy.

Addressing Ancel Keys, I'm not sure he is the poster boy for unbiased science.

Quote:
This issue can be traced back to the 1950s and a researcher named Ancel Keys whose "Seven Countries Study" became the basis for his contention that cardiovascular disease was largely the result of high serum cholesterol levels brought on by a diet high in saturated fat.

However, Ancel Keys and his "lipid hypothesis" is a perfect example of strong bias affecting research results. Keys was, in fact, determined to "prove" his lipid hypothesis by pretty much any means, even if that included selecting only data that supported it.

This is precisely what happened with the lipid hypothesis.

Ancel Keys had put forth that a high fat diet, particularly a diet high in saturated fat, was a major contributor to high cholesterol which in turn leads to heart disease in the form of arteriosclerosis (arterial plaque build-up).

Subsequent and independent analysis of the data that were available to Keys shows that he "cherry picked" only those countries with numbers that supported his hypothesis and omitted a significant amount of data that showed there was actually no correlation between dietary fat, cholesterol, and arteriosclerosis. But this information has been largely ignored.

Part of this can be explained by powerful industry groups with a vested interest in having his theory accepted as fact. Part of it can also be attributed to Keys’ strong and persuasive personality.

The upshot is that today, some 50 years later, a lipid hypothesis based on faulty data is accepted as true by governments, health organizations, the media, and industry, and we, the general population are left eating a recommended diet that just might be causing more harm than good.

Lipid Hypothesis
A Wikipedia reference.

Quote:
The research of Ancel Keys has been criticized by Uffe Ravnskov amongst others for having selection bias when supporting his conclusions. Ravnskov examined the data that Keys used and found no correlation to back up Keys' findings.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:52 AM   #28
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This is good.

The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. » Jack LaLanne vs Ancel Keys
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:07 AM   #29
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Trevor Lane View Post
I have to revert to my first post in this thread as my argument against any "pro-margarine" posters, and you can test it yourself. Flies, who eat shit all the time, will not land on a stick of margarine. Test any manufacturer's brand in any country and you will have a fly free stick of margarine every time.
Trev, this has all the hallmarks of an urban myth, but OK I will be very interested to test out your claim. Any brand, any country? Fair enough. Apart from anything else, many 'margarines' these days are actually blends of vegetable oils and buttermilk, so my guess is they will go for something like that.

Anyway, the problem with your observation is that it doesn't really tell us much. The chemical and other cues that attract one species to food aren't the same as another's.

My guess is that most mammals will happily eat margarine. Dogs certainly do, and my cat is partial to it as well. Any brand. Does this mean that flies have got some sort of special insight that other species don't share?

On the other hand, my cat will eat vaseline, which I wouldn't say has much nutritional value...

So I don't think the flies thing really tells us much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post

[paraphrased]:

1. Ancel Keys manipulated his data to support his claim.

2. Call me a Gov't conspiracy nut if thats what you need to think, but in the US, the Gov't is nothing but a good old boy club of back room deals

3. Natural fats don't cause the issues that these so caled healthy alternatives do.

4. Nobody has said that fat should be the main source of calories in your diet.

5.What is being said is that natural fats are not the demons that the Gov't wants to make them out to be.

6. Don't eat fat, but fill up on processed grains, that is just asinine.
This is a difficult post to respond to, because it's a bit of a rant to be honest.

However:

1. I don't know much about Keys, but you should be aware that one of his main critics is arch-fruitcake Uffe Ravnskov, which should tell you something.

But let's say your claim about Keys is right. Here's the issue: research is not confined to the US. Research into heart disease and diets is an international effort. The US is not the world. Research did not begin and end with Ancel Keys. Do you believe that Ancel Key's work was so influential that every government in the western world based their dietary advice upon it?

Once again, science proceeds not on the basis of individual studies but on a careful sifting of evidence. Research did not begin and end with Ancel Keys.

2. I find the conflation of politics and science really frustrating. In the absence of any real evidence to back their claims, a familiar tactic used by fringe nutritionists (and fringe climate scientists, fringe CAM practitioners etc) is to prey on most people's suspicions of their government. But again, the flaw in your argument is that the US agrees with the international community when it comes to fats.

3. Again, the hidden assumption seems to be that something natural has to be better than something artificial. But this is a massive oversimplification, and the evidence doesn't bear it out.

4. That's right, no one has said that -in this or other threads.

5. Again, this is straw man stuff. Your government, and other governments, don;t demonise 'natural' fats. Have you actually looked at government guidelines? They are to reduce saturated fats, and to replace potential trans fats (in cookies etc, or even some margarines).

6. Evidence that grains are bad? Cochrane reviews would be a good place to start or pubmed. I'm not trying to be an ass here, but these are more credible sources than people like Fallon, who spend their time making youtube clips, instead of doing proper research in peer-reviewed journals.
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