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Nutrition, Diet and Supplements Discuss nutrition, diet, cutting and weight loss. Supplement discussions as well.

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Old 01-18-2012, 03:22 PM   #11
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Is common sense that i need multis. Bodybuilders dont eat "healthy" we eat for appearance. That said im definitely missing out on nutrients.
And i will almost always side against big pharma and the FDA. Ive seen and dealt with too much to believe they give a shit about anything more than money in their pockets.
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:16 PM   #12
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Newsflash: fda is a business, more or less. They are paid and funded by the govt which is run by politicians who have accepted money from big pharma which puts those politicians into big pharma's pocket. You think the fda has your interests in mind? You'd be mistaken. But if thats what you choose to believe, have at it. =0 )


Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanCT View Post
Is common sense that i need multis. Bodybuilders dont eat "healthy" we eat for appearance. That said im definitely missing out on nutrients.
And i will almost always side against big pharma and the FDA. Ive seen and dealt with too much to believe they give a shit about anything more than money in their pockets.
Well, that's a good point that some bodybuilders follow fairly restrictive diets. However, the OP said he followed a healthy diet, not a restricted diet.

We don't have the FDA here, but we have the equivalent. They're sometimes more draconian than the FDA. I'm with them all the way. I wish they had a few more teeth, so they could take beta-carotene off the market, and everything else sold to gullible and/or confused consumers on the back of bullshit science and the say-so of quack nutritionists.

I don't buy Big Pharma conspiracy theories any more than I believe the moon landings were faked.

As for caring about money in the pocket: well, out of the FDA and the supplement industry, I know which one is entirely motivated by profit (it being a business, after all).

Last edited by TitanCT; 01-19-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:23 PM   #13
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Being an old geezer I take one as a fallback because I do not eat much food to begin with.
I also have low D3 levels.

I am hoping my Paleo lifestyle will turn some of my previous nutritional deficiencies around.
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:37 PM   #14
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I'm more wary about what supplements I take these days, but there are some that I can't live without. If I don't take a multi-vitamin, after about a month, my healing time goes up drastically, most noticeably my cheeks and lips, which get cut up frequently from one thing or another. Whilst taking a multi, they heal up quickly with minimal pain, but without one they will become inflamed and very painful and take 3 times longer to heal. I'm not sure what nutrient I am missing to cause that, but the multi takes care of it.

On the other hand, I may start looking for what exactly it is that causes this, the fewer pills I have to take the better. As I get deeper into Paleo, removing refined things becomes more important to me, and refined, synthetic vitamins are on the list of things to minimize.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:51 PM   #15
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My absolutely necessary supplement list is thus:
PWO protein (rest should really be food)
Multi
Glucosamine (if you have regular joint soreness without it, since I've developed that I take it daily)
Fish oil (unless you eat fish daily)

The nice to have supplements for me:
CGT
Test booster (T-bomb is my preference)
Fat burner (anything thermogenic is my preference)
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Newsflash: fda is a business, more or less. They are paid and funded by the govt which is run by politicians who have accepted money from big pharma which puts those politicians into big pharma's pocket. You think the fda has your interests in mind? You'd be mistaken. But if thats what you choose to believe, have at it. =0 )
This is confusing, as I'm apparently quoting myself, but this is actually a comment that TitanCT inserted into my post with his god-like moderating abilities.

Anyway, it's more Big Pharma conspiracy.

The supplement industry has a somewhat schizophrenic relationship with research, agreeing with the positive findings when it suits their purposes (like in their marketiing literature) and banging the 'bias' drum when the tide starts to turn against them. Which it is.

Any way, I stumbled across this today, which may be of interest to some:

Quote:

Does antioxidant vitamin supplementation protect against muscle damage?
McGinley C, Shafat A, Donnelly AE.


Abstract

The high forces undergone during repetitive eccentric, or lengthening, contractions place skeletal muscle under considerable stress, in particular if unaccustomed. Although muscle is highly adaptive, the responses to stress may not be optimally regulated by the body. Reactive oxygen species (ROS) are one component of the stress response that may contribute to muscle damage after eccentric exercise. Antioxidants may in turn scavenge ROS, thereby preventing or attenuating muscle damage. The antioxidant vitamins C (ascorbic acid) and E (tocopherol) are among the most commonly used sport supplements, and are often taken in large doses by athletes and other sportspersons because of their potential protective effect against muscle damage. This review assesses studies that have investigated the effects of these two antioxidants, alone or in combination, on muscle damage and oxidative stress. Studies have used a variety of supplementation strategies, with variations in dosage, timing and duration of supplementation. Although there is some evidence to show that both antioxidants can reduce indices of oxidative stress, there is little evidence to support a role for vitamin C and/or vitamin E in protecting against muscle damage. Indeed, antioxidant supplementation may actually interfere with the cellular signalling functions of ROS, thereby adversely affecting muscle performance. Furthermore, recent studies have cast doubt on the benign effects of long-term, high-dosage antioxidant supplementation. High doses of vitamin E, in particular, may increase all-cause mortality. Although some equivocation remains in the extant literature regarding the beneficial effects of antioxidant vitamin supplementation on muscle damage, there is little evidence to support such a role. Since the potential for long-term harm does exist, the casual use of high doses of antioxidants by athletes and others should perhaps be curtailed.
My emboldening. Original is on pubmed.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:29 PM   #17
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And one leads to another:

Quote:
Antioxidant supplementation during exercise training: beneficial or detrimental?
Peternelj TT, Coombes JS.

Abstract

High levels of reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced in skeletal muscle during exercise have been associated with muscle damage and impaired muscle function. Supporting endogenous defence systems with additional oral doses of antioxidants has received much attention as a noninvasive strategy to prevent or reduce oxidative stress, decrease muscle damage and improve exercise performance. Over 150 articles have been published on this topic, with almost all of these being small-scale, low-quality studies. The consistent finding is that antioxidant supplementation attenuates exercise-induced oxidative stress. However, any physiological implications of this have yet to be consistently demonstrated, with most studies reporting no effects on exercise-induced muscle damage and performance. Moreover, a growing body of evidence indicates detrimental effects of antioxidant supplementation on the health and performance benefits of exercise training. Indeed, although ROS are associated with harmful biological events, they are also essential to the development and optimal function of every cell. The aim of this review is to present and discuss 23 studies that have shown that antioxidant supplementation interferes with exercise training-induced adaptations. The main findings of these studies are that, in certain situations, loading the cell with high doses of antioxidants leads to a blunting of the positive effects of exercise training and interferes with important ROS-mediated physiological processes, such as vasodilation and insulin signalling. More research is needed to produce evidence-based guidelines regarding the use of antioxidant supplementation during exercise training. We recommend that an adequate intake of vitamins and minerals through a varied and balanced diet remains the best approach to maintain the optimal antioxidant status in exercising individuals.
Edit to add: this is only a review study, with no evaluation of the 23 studies, but there's more and more of this stuff coming out.
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Last edited by Tannhauser; 01-22-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:44 PM   #18
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Another:

Quote:
Antioxidants Do Not Prevent Postexercise Peroxidation and May Delay Muscle Recovery

TEIXEIRA, VITOR H.1; VALENTE, HUGO F.1,2; CASAL, SUSANA I.3; MARQUES, A. FRANKLIM4,5; MOREIRA, PEDRO A.1,2
Quote:
Purpose: This study aimed to determine the effects of 4 wk of antioxidants (AOX) supplementation on exercise-induced lipid peroxidation, muscle damage, and inflammation in kayakers.

Methods: Subjects (n = 20) were randomly assigned to receive a placebo (PLA) or an AOX capsule (AOX; 272 mg of α-tocopherol, 400 mg of vitamin C, 30 mg of β-carotene, 2 mg of lutein, 400 μg of selenium, 30 mg of zinc, and 600 mg of magnesium). Blood samples were collected at rest and 15 min after a 1000-m kayak race, both before and after the supplementation period, for analysis of α-tocopherol, α-carotene, β-carotene, lycopene, lutein plus zeaxanthin, vitamin C, uric acid, total AOX status (TAS), thiobarbituric reactive acid substances (TBARS) and interleukin-6 (IL-6) levels, and creatine kinase (CK), superoxide dismutase (SOD), glutathione reductase (Gr), and glutathione peroxidase (GPx) activities.

Results: With supplementation, plasma α-tocopherol (P = 0.003) and β-carotene (P = 0.007) augmented significantly in the AOX group. IL-6 (exercise, P = 0.039), TBARS (exercise, P < 0.001), and uric acid (exercise, P = 0.032) increased significantly in response to the exercise regardless of treatment group. Cortisol level raised more from pre- to postsupplementation period in the PLA group (time × supplementation, P = 0.002). Although TAS declined after exercise before intervention, it increased above preexercise values after the 4-wk period in the AOX group (supplementation × time × exercise, P = 0.034). CK increased after exercise in both groups (exercise effect, P < 0.001) and decreased from week 0 to week 4 more markedly in the PLA group (supplementation × time, P = 0.049).

Conclusions: AOX supplementation does not offer protection against exercise-induced lipid peroxidation and inflammation and may hinder the recovery of muscle damage.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:54 PM   #19
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Last one for now:

Quote:
Antioxidant supplementation does not alter endurance training adaptation.
Yfanti C, Akerström T, Nielsen S, Nielsen AR, Mounier R, Mortensen OH, Lykkesfeldt J, Rose AJ, Fischer CP, Pedersen BK.

Source

Center of Inflammation and Metabolism at Department of Infectious Diseases, Rigshospitalet, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark. christinayfanti@inflammation-metabolism.dk
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

There is a considerable commercial market, especially within the sports community, claiming the need for antioxidant supplementation. One argument for antioxidant supplementation in sports is that physical exercise is associated with increased reactive oxygen and nitrogen species (RONS) production, which may cause cell damage. However, RONS production may also activate redox-sensitive signaling pathways and transcription factors, which subsequently, may promote training adaptation.
PURPOSE:

Our aim was to investigate the effects of combined vitamin C and E supplementation to healthy individuals on different measures of exercise performance after endurance training.
METHODS:

Using a double-blinded placebo-controlled design, moderately trained young men received either oral supplementation with vitamins C and E (n = 11) or placebo (n = 10) before and during 12 wk of supervised, strenuous bicycle exercise training of a frequency of 5 d x wk(-1). Muscle biopsies were obtained before and after training.
RESULTS:

After the training period, maximal oxygen consumption, maximal power output, and workload at lactate threshold increased markedly (P < 0.01) in both groups. Also, glycogen concentration, citrate synthase, and beta-hydroxyacyl-CoA dehydrogenase activity in the muscle were significantly higher in response to training (P < 0.01) in both groups. However, there were no differences between the two groups concerning any of the physiological and metabolic variables measured.

CONCLUSIONS:

Our results suggest that administration of vitamins C and E to individuals with no previous vitamin deficiencies has no effect on physical adaptations to strenuous endurance training.
Oh, and at least three of these are beyond the big bad FDA's reach.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:23 AM   #20
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I'm lost Tan.
Are you long and short saying you don't beleive in Multi's or Antioxidant supplementation?
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