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Old 12-27-2011, 08:26 PM   #1
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What are the benefits of using prohormones? Do you use them?
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:36 PM   #2
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Doesn't really belong in the beginner forum. Moving it to the PH forum.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:49 PM   #3
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I do not use them. For one thing, I don't need them. For another thing I've heard that they can be more harsh than the real thing and aren't nearly as effective. Just not my thing.
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Old 12-27-2011, 10:30 PM   #4
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I'll start by saying this, Prohormones are Oral Steroids, period, end of story. Well I guess they aren't an oral steroid if they use transdermal delivery, but the point is that they are steroids.
Your question is rather general, so I'll give you a general answer. The benefits are the same as they would be with steroids. Of course different compounds do different things. And with the benefits come risks. And different compounds come with different risks.

This is just my opinion on the matter.
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjack View Post
What are the benefits of using prohormones? Do you use them?


No, I have never taken a pro-hormone. And, if any OTC Pro-hormone was proven to enhance performance and/or muscle (etc), it wouldn't last long on the market--even though this is one of the poorest segments of the market that is regulated by the FDA.

Simply put there are very few OTC's that are actually worth your time and money.

As an example: Creatine Mono, though not a pro-hormone, has stood the test of time, and does have some sound research behind it, and can be of benefit to the right person in the right position in the goal journey. But, even then some people do not read the side effects of the things they choose to take.

To further this example: One potential side effect of taking Creatine mono, is water retention. The reason is very sound if you read physiology behind it. But one can get discouraged (because of being uneducated) and not know why they gained about 3 to 5 pounds, when trying to lose fat tissue; as compared to the the previous week they may of lost 5 pounds, and then they "think" they gained it all back, while still deficit dieting the week they gained it. If they would have studied prior, then they would know what they are personally experiencing.

And, I do not buy anything unless I do some thorough research, and take the "marketing" labels on most products like these as complete gibberish, until its proven to me otherwise, by independent study and independent research.

Remember, all things that are put in the mouth are processed by the body; and, how these are processed whether good or bad, depends on what the quality and quantity of the item is, genetic disposition, and many other internal factors.

Just remember, just as aging makes us all equal in the end and is a fact that leads to a slow death TO ALL, what you put in your mouth (that may be unnecessary), can be like a slow death. One should always be careful when mucking with the balance of the body.

Nothing in the overall scheme of your personal goal, should trump, health.

"Some" over the counter supplements, are designed to manipulate the consumers personal senses; it goes to the very core in what the potential buyer is trying to manipulate. And, this sells products.

And, in the marketing sense, this works and is a powerful manipulative force to one that doesn’t look at these products through: Educated Eyes.

My advice to you:

Put more time, effort, and energy, in study of basic dietary mechanics and its manipulation and how you can fit this into your lifestyle and meet your goal, and put more time, effort, and energy in study of training and exercising manipulation and how you can enjoin the manipulation of diet and this together for a personal fit. This is what will make you earn your goal.

By far this is the TRUE natural and safe bet that has no equal.

Save your money and spend it on the aforementioned paragraph.


Note:

TO all Mabers:

Of all the bad feelings along ones path that we encounter as we work toward our goals, the feeling that we encounter once we meet are goals are 30 times more powerful than all the bad feelings COMBINED in our path to get there.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillen View Post
And, if any OTC Pro-hormone was proven to enhance performance and/or muscle (etc), it wouldn't last long on the market--even though this is one of the poorest segments of the market that is regulated by the FDA.

.
I don't disagree at all with anything you said in your post with the exception of the quote above.
This is simply not true. Many of the OTC compounds are proven to enhance performance and/or muscle both by users experiences and by laboratory tests of the compounds. Don't kid yourself, there are many OTC "Prohromones" that are steroids, that do work for gaining muscle and enhancing strength. And many of them over the years have been banned by the FDA. However, it is amazing how slow the FDA machine moves. Coming up here in 2012 we have 2 compounds that have been sold OTC for many years that have finally been banned.

Your post is great. I think you have a very valid point and offer a very well thought out perspective. I am in no way trying to contradict the overall point you made.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:24 AM   #7
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Its been a while since I've read up on the topic, but if memory serves me right, pro-hormones are essentially steriods/anabolics/etc except they aren't themselves the specific hormones associated directly with performance enhancing drugs. That is to say that the body in all of its abilities converts the pro hormone into one that the body can "effectively" use.

They're positive AND negative effects on the body are very much similiar to their counter parts and still require knowledge in use, dosage, post cycle therapy, etc. It may be OTC but its no protein powder. Traces will more than likely show up in piss tests and the gov't and drug-free sports organizations continue to ban these types of substances... they are just a little behind the ball.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
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I don't disagree at all with anything you said in your post with the exception of the quote above.

This is simply not true. Many of the OTC compounds are proven to enhance performance and/or muscle both by users experiences and by laboratory tests of the compounds.

Good morning, Josh, hope this day finds you well, bro.

Personally, I am very skeptical of blanket independent claims of personal benefits of pro-hormones---without examining the totality of the circumstances surrounding the "users experience".

I will not take it on face value, and this is simply logical, without examining the other independent variables that could be involved providing influential factors.

For example: while taking a pro-hormone (what type is it, and what is its ingredients?). What other supplements is this person taking? Is the OTC supplement, been made to withstand digestion in the stomach to prevent its destruction in order to be an assistant/precursor to hormones of the body?

If through example, this person is taking Creatine and/or a Nitrous Oxide product, this can muddy the water in what the "user is actually viewing/experiencing" because, Creatine can add weight and muscle swelling through water retention, and oxide can create the possibility of improved pumps during intense workouts.

In addition, then their is diet/training to look at and then comparing the current "real physical results" (and not the temporary water retention as in Creatine, in this example), with previous results, if there is a history to examine. This is one reason (in this example) I do not take user experience all that seriously, without examining the entire environment--first. I simple will not come to the conclusion that this or that works, because someone says so. This is simply illogical and does not pass the common sense test to me.

Quote:
Don't kid yourself, there are many OTC "Prohromones" that are steroids.....
Pro-hormones are not steroids. And dependent on which OTC product we are speaking about, no, many have NOT been "adequately" proven to work as advertised.

Quote:
And many of them over the years have been banned by the FDA. However, it is amazing how slow the FDA machine moves. Coming up here in 2012 we have 2 compounds that have been sold OTC for many years that have finally been banned.
This is very true, bro.

And is the reason I underlined: even though this is one of the poorest segments of the market that is regulated by the FDA.


Regulation means management in a different word. And, the FDA does a poor job. We have to remember that his regulation even stems to the ingredients in some of these OTC's, and we MUST BE CAREFUL.

Something to think about. Before a prescription drug (well in most cases, anyway), can be become a prescription drug, it has to go through a serious of regulated tests and some of these can take years before there are determined safe. And even then there are side effects with most, and problems from drugs approved for public prescriptions.

OTC's do NOT GET THIS TYPE OF ATTENTION from the government and is not regulated quite like the steps to become a prescribed drug--therefore, be careful and I believe MORE skeptical.

It took publicity and other factors before Andro was banned, and it was on the market for several years before the hype brought on through McGuire's home run record chase at the time.

One More thought if you don't mind:


Cigarettes are regulated, heavily studied and most should know the health and performance problems these can cause, and these are legal. Be skeptical it will pay off.

Your good bro, have nice day. Trained this AM, and off to work. Have a great day.

Chillen
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:46 PM   #9
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You seem like a very intelligent person. And I have a great amount of respect for what you have achieved through weightlifting. However, I think you are doing yourself a disservice with your lack of knowledge on the current "prohormone" market. In other words, I really don't think you have done your homework in regards to what truly is available out there OTC.
Please don't think I am trying to disrespectful or trying to call you out. I just think with a subject like this, there is often a lot of misinformation. You are clearly much more intelligent than I, however facts are facts and I think you are missing some of the facts regarding OTC prohormones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillen View Post
Good morning, Josh, hope this day finds you well, bro.

Personally, I am very skeptical of blanket independent claims of personal benefits of pro-hormones---without examining the totality of the circumstances surrounding the "users experience".

I will not take it on face value, and this is simply logical, without examining the other independent variables that could be involved providing influential factors.

For example: while taking a pro-hormone (what type is it, and what is its ingredients?). What other supplements is this person taking? Is the OTC supplement, been made to withstand digestion in the stomach to prevent its destruction in order to be an assistant/precursor to hormones of the body?

If through example, this person is taking Creatine and/or a Nitrous Oxide product, this can muddy the water in what the "user is actually viewing/experiencing" because, Creatine can add weight and muscle swelling through water retention, and oxide can create the possibility of improved pumps during intense workouts.

In addition, then their is diet/training to look at and then comparing the current "real physical results" (and not the temporary water retention as in Creatine, in this example), with previous results, if there is a history to examine. This is one reason (in this example) I do not take user experience all that seriously, without examining the entire environment--first. I simple will not come to the conclusion that this or that works, because someone says so. This is simply illogical and does not pass the common sense test to me.
Your logic is flawed. We are dealing with extreme changes. Not just the relatively small benefits of supps like creatine. These "Prohormone" (as they are often called) produce extreme results.
I don't care if someone is taking creatine and a NO supplement along with it, if they start taking Superdrol(for example) and add 15lbs of muscle on a 4 week cycle, I guarantee you it wasn't the creatine and NO that put that muscle on there frame! You seem to be big on common sense, yet with this subject you are using the vale of common sense to put your head in the sand. These compounds can't be compared to Creatine and NO. They produce drastic results. Of course compound by compound these results will vary. Not every PH is going to put 15lbs of muscle on someones frame. But many compounds do and will produce results noticeably and clearly above and beyond what creatine and NO will produce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillen View Post
Pro-hormones are not steroids. And dependent on which OTC product we are speaking about, no, many have NOT been "adequately" proven to work as advertised.
Once again bro, you are an accomplished natural lifter. And I truly respect that. Your overall knowledge is much more than mine.
But on this matter, with the above quote, you are flat out wrong. No if ands or buts about it. Facts are facts.
And the fact of the matter is 2 fold.
1.) many of the compounds available otc on the market are indeed orally active steroids. Period end of story. They require no conversion in the body. They are legit orally active anabolics. Does some research on Superdrol and epistane for example. You will see for yourself, you don't have to take my word for it.
2.) A prohormone is merely a compound that is converted to a steroid in a 1 or 2 step process once it has entered the body. A prohormone is a steroid. Do the research bro. Don't take my word for it.
I don't understand what you mean by "adequately" proven to work, if you did a little research you would not only find thousands of logs on the internet where people logged there results, but you can also find blood work proving that the compound does what it says it does.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillen View Post
And is the reason I underlined: even though this is one of the poorest segments of the market that is regulated by the FDA.


Regulation means management in a different word. And, the FDA does a poor job. We have to remember that his regulation even stems to the ingredients in some of these OTC's, and we MUST BE CAREFUL.

Something to think about. Before a prescription drug (well in most cases, anyway), can be become a prescription drug, it has to go through a serious of regulated tests and some of these can take years before there are determined safe. And even then there are side effects with most, and problems from drugs approved for public prescriptions.

OTC's do NOT GET THIS TYPE OF ATTENTION from the government and is not regulated quite like the steps to become a prescribed drug--therefore, be careful and I believe MORE skeptical.

It took publicity and other factors before Andro was banned, and it was on the market for several years before the hype brought on through McGuire's home run record chase at the time.

One More thought if you don't mind:


Cigarettes are regulated, heavily studied and most should know the health and performance problems these can cause, and these are legal. Be skeptical it will pay off.

Your good bro, have nice day. Trained this AM, and off to work. Have a great day.

Chillen
You are right here. I am not encouraging people to use Prohormones and I am not saying they are under researched as far as the long term health risks. They do come with potential negative sides. This is true. Taking them is a health risk.
And not everyone should take them. It is up to the individual.
However, I think people should be given the facts about the benefits and the potential risks so that they can make an educated decision on there own.
That is why I feel so strongly about someone making false statements about there effects, both good and bad.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:58 PM   #10
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I think we can agree to disagree, and call it a day.

And, mind you, I said very few (with it underlined) otc prohormones were actually any good, and this generally means, not all of them.

And, I generally avoid/ignore personal dissertations.



Best wishes to you, and happy New Year.
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