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Nutrition, Diet and Supplements Discuss nutrition, diet, cutting and weight loss. Supplement discussions as well.

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Old 10-08-2011, 08:39 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Chillen View Post
Never tried it. As with most stimulants, it can have its "benefit properties", whether its necessary is another issue.

I have a different view (probably from most on supplements--dependent on what we are discussing), but I just don't like adding "certain" supplements, when one's body (has proven to be normal in hormones, etc, etc), and basically healthy. With this in mind, nothing short of manipulating the macro nutrients, calories, and exercise won't take care of. Like with most things that attempt to aide--certain elements of the complicated metabolism (such as the ECA stack), it will only aide one (potentially) if one's dietary perimeters are in check, and has control of their mouth (eating habits, no disrespect intended).

What makes you think you may need this in this first place? Have you tried dieting for any length of time. If so, what were the results, and what were you doing with your diet configuration? How much to lose, and what is the length of time you want to lose this in?
I definitely agree that people need to experience things like cutting without supps first. I'd lost weight many times before I ever introduced something like an EC stack. Like all supps, they are a small part of the picture. Planning, execution, flexibility and consistency are all far more important than any supplement you can take, even the ones of questionable legality.
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:03 AM   #22
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I definitely agree that people need to experience things like cutting without supps first. I'd lost weight many times before I ever introduced something like an EC stack. Like all supps, they are a small part of the picture. Planning, execution, flexibility and consistency are all far more important than any supplement you can take, even the ones of questionable legality.
There is no such thing, as pop a pill and watch the wonderful fat loss show!

Even to obtain the questionable beneficial properties (pointing to fat loss) from stimulants, IMO, one has to have the basic fundelmentals in diet down (geared toward tissue loss), be consistent in this, and understand the varying elements in manipulating the macro nutrients/calories and exercise (and understand HOW this can be used a tool in their goal attempt), BEFORE considering an aide--that will only provide a small amount of benefit in comparison--if any.

I am just a hard nosed sort of guy. Comes from my years in the military and police career. All my hormones and functions are normal for my old-ass, I never had to resort to an aide, other then the basic mechanics in diet and manipulating certain aspects of the componants of diet (macros, calories, exercise), and still got very lean. I had my problem spots and trials and tribulations (especially) lower abdominal area--but tweaking carbohydrates/sodium properties and allowing the glucose stores to drop/deplete a bit, fixed this complication in time.

Never resorted to an OTC reference fat loss, and my metabolism is an antique! LOL..... at 50
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:56 PM   #23
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Chillen, I'm inline/agree with your mentality. Fat loss supplements and 'properties' are only a very, very small fraction of the big picture. They may certainly help but the benefits are marginal. NOTHING can overcome correct changes in diet (and adequate training). Most of the hype for these supplement/drugs are nothing more than marketing ploys. Maximize the minimum.

Something to consider on that topic: With the obesity "epidemic" in the United States, if there was a real fat loss wonder drug, don't you think you would have heard of it by now not to mention, seen its wide(er) spread use?
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Old 10-08-2011, 04:42 PM   #24
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Chillen, I'm inline/agree with your mentality. Fat loss supplements and 'properties' are only a very, very small fraction of the big picture. They may certainly help but the benefits are marginal. NOTHING can overcome correct changes in diet (and adequate training). Most of the hype for these supplement/drugs are nothing more than marketing ploys. Maximize the minimum.

Something to consider on that topic: With the obesity "epidemic" in the United States, if there was a real fat loss wonder drug, don't you think you would have heard of it by now not to mention, seen its wide(er) spread use?
Do you think the medical industry really WANTS everyone to lose weight? I hate to be the conspiracy guy, but if everyone lost weight and got helathy then the medical industry would lose billions a year. I firmly believe that there are people sitting on multiple medications, or even just information, that would change the world for the better, but they can't make money off of it.

Here's an example; how many times have we proven over and over that fat doesn't make you fat? We've known it for a LONG time, yet you have states banning certain fats and countries taxing high-fat foods, even those that have been shown to have huge health benefits like certain oils.

Like I said, I don't want to be the conspiracy guy, and I really don't think it's a conspiracy. . .more like a small number of people making the decisions that are best for their pocket books.
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Old 10-08-2011, 08:54 PM   #25
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Would bronkaid and caffeine be a good pre workout choice?
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:09 PM   #26
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Would bronkaid and caffeine be a good pre workout choice?
I would take it first thing in the morning first to get a feel for how it impacts you.

Back in the day when Hydroxycut was legit I couldn't sleep the first night.
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:40 PM   #27
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Would bronkaid and caffeine be a good pre workout choice?
I found that I was a bit jittery, but not in a way that would be good for athletics or anything requiring coordination. I know some preworkout supps can help with focus, but I found that this stack had the opposite affect. It was hard to focus on anything at all.

If anyone wants to see how this would affect them, get a pill splitter and try a half dose during a time when you don't have anything else going on. Unless you've been pounding Monters, you'll definitely feel this stack the first time you take it.
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Old 10-08-2011, 10:02 PM   #28
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how was your results, mood & over all thoughts doing it this way? what is the aspirin for in this stack anyway?
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Aspirin acts as a blood thinner to transport the eph and caffeine more efficiently. Stacking it this way is way better than buying any supp labeled Ephedra. Overall mood and energy is awesome, only thing with this type of stack you can really only run it 2-3 weeks top then you need to switch to a fat burner of some sort for 1-2 weeks.
main reason is to reduce blood pressure reduce chance of heart attack but to much can cause internal bleeding nfi about the transport thing.

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Old 10-09-2011, 09:49 AM   #29
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Back when I started my first goal (losing 40 pounds or more off of my then-fat-ass), I started to notice some changes the leaner I got. At first, when I set up the numerical data for my diet around my personal particulars, I lost weight real easy. I attribute this to something like: Rolling along feeding your face with whatever, and eating an abundance of calories over maintenance--then suddenly without warning (like falling off a cliff), calories stop coming in as abundant (setting calorie deficit), and the bodily reaction was very strong, and weight came off reletively easy--even in my mid 40's + at the time.

This is normal for most peeps in this sort of circumstance. The metabolic reasons for this response are obvious-at least to me. In short, my body was acustomed to or adapted to an abundance of calories, and adjusted to this metabolically. When I changed things (or put the brakes on) it reacted favorably--which is logical when you think in terms of metabolic adaptions. In addition, my body fat was high at the time.

The more I dieted, however, the more I learned just how wonderful "adaption mechanic" the body is. For several months, a set deficit of calories worked (macros did not matter-in the perspective of fat loss); however, after a few months, and the leaner I got, things began to change. At about 10/11% BF, I remained stagnant with the same amount of calories (and same exercise regime, albeit other activity), and the fat loss stalled for about 2 weeks.

The first adjustment, I made was tweaking the deficit down another 200 calories. I should note here that, I also adjusted my MT-line as my weight dropped, to adjust to the new calorie level (per body weight reduction).

Numerically on paper, this worked out to be about 1.5 (approx) per week, but as I would learn, this is NOT what would happen in reality. The next two weeks, were nearly identical to the previous two. With the exception, I lost a small amount, but it was not even close to the numerical numbers I worked out for my individual particulars. So, we have a month of no progress at this point.

At the time, what I did not reason with is the fact that, just as my body had adjusted to the large amount of calories at the beginning (and I got a strong response when this changed), it has also metbolically adjusting over several months to the amount of calories I have been eating--to the point it became VERY EFFICIENT in what I was feeding it, though it was in a deficit. It slowed down metabolic expensive operations, sped up others, made hormonal adjustments, and simply was an efficient calorie (and energy pathway) bastard ().

Though (the aformentioned) is personal, this is NOT an uncommon experience with a lot of dieters.

Some at this point, will resort to so-called metabolic stimulants, as a easier (or helpful) way out, without adjusting other aspects of the diet (macro-nutrients, re-feeds, gearing weight training as an AIDE to fat loss, etc, etc,), other then setting another different deficit. But, lowering deficits further can only go so far, and most certainly will not be a helpful assistant in keeping muscle (look what happened to the holocost survivors, and the paper examining their dietary contents). Some will throw up there hands and say they tried everything, when in reality they haven't--the one that worked.

My thinking is this. Since my body has uncanny adaption mechanics, where it can adjust its metabolic properties in accordance to what---I DO TO IT--and this is natural.....then there MUST be a natural way to make an adjustment to its adjustments. Working to get lean is different in the sense of what problems you are working WITH as compared to building muscle as the primary purpose goal point. A this point, I examined what was done, and what was not done in the dietary sense, and what I was facing. What I was facing was a metabolic slow down (keeping things simple), I haven't tweaked macro-nutrients, I haven't worked in planned re-feeds, I haven't worked in any (additional or tweaked the existing) metabolic weight training and/or cardiovascular work (realizing here that weight training and cardiovascular exercise can have vastly different energy pathways used, which is key to understand). In other words, the natural oppportunities are available. The only problem was which combination would work for me.

To make this short. At this point, I studied the "appropriate" papers relating to my specific problem.....heck its no closer than the finger tips of my hands. I was asked by very close friend to purchase a few books, and read them as it most related to my goal-position problem. I read some books written by Lyle Mcdonald, and he passed all the "common sense educational flags", I put up when I read things. In short, I brought my deficit back to where it once was (right at the start of the problem), reduced carbohydrates, and set a metabolic-circuit and carbohydrate-focused weighted training regime (albiet modified from the protocol, Lyle Proposes). After a specified length, added in re-feeds, and this worked like charm (to make this very short).

Lyle does support (but DOES NOT require), certain supplments, where one is working with depletion sets. One is Yohimbine HCL (At specific doses, and empty stomach, as insulin tends to reduce the effects), because of the specific properties it poses on specific inhibotors in fat tissue-pointing to resistent tissue) and hormonal properties, and others. But, he doesn't approve many.


Though I drink coffee, and has the stimulant Caffiene, I didnt like the level of heart rate increase some experienced using a good grade Yohimbine HCL, and never used it, and didn't need it--natural remedies WORKED. And, I may point out, I drink a lot of coffee per day, and it had no effect when I was having plateau issues with tissue loss at that time. It was useless in this persepctive. I just like it, though.

My point here is to THINK.......Think right. Natural recourses are available to you, and the manipulation of these are only limited to the amount of education (and the amount of education you want to learn).
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Last edited by Chillen; 10-09-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 10-09-2011, 12:26 PM   #30
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main reason is to reduce blood pressure reduce chance of heart attack but to much can cause internal bleeding nfi about the transport thing.
Good to know thanks. I wondered what it was used for.
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