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Nutrition, Diet and Supplements Discuss nutrition, diet, cutting and weight loss. Supplement discussions as well.

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Old 03-01-2010, 08:52 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by folkprophet View Post
What would be the ending result?
I assume we're talking someone that doesn't train? I am wagering that the end result would be about the same, because of the same caloric intake. I mean, a clean diet of 5000+ calories per day will be very carb heavy. If someone ate only carbs - like doritos and soda, I could see them potentially having more fat. But I'm not educated on the effects of a carb only diet. I have done some reading on the ills of carbs, but have never come across (more or less) a carb-only approach. So my post was a little off center.

I think we need to take a step back, because our hypotheticals aren't realistic. There aren't too many fat guys eating all clean, nor eating all soda and Doritos. I would wager that most fat guys get a fair share of protein just from the volume that they consume.

I will fall back on the sumo study. This was a look at a group of obese individuals that ate everything in their path. I would consider this, more or less, a look at an average fat guy. When the sumo study looked at this group of fat guys, they found the fat guys has as much muscle mass as an average natural bodybuilder.

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In this (bodybuilding) lifestyle only an idiot would not consider making healthy eating choices.
I agree with you to a point. I also see far too many guys not eating enough, having no clue what their maintenance levels are, and who don't own a caliper. There are masses of these guys on various forums who think they are hardgainers. I think they could benefit from using a shovel as a spoon. I'm not saying that they should eat all dirty - but it's hard to eat clean and get enough calories for many of these guys.

But I would also add that I have some large natural powerlifting friends that eat like utter crap, and they have enough muscle to make the average bodybuilder-trainee look small.

I am not trying to defend their food choices, but rather stating that there are plenty of lifters that eat relatively dirty compared to bodybuilders. I wouldn't say that my friends eat ALL crap - they eat plenty of good food. But they don't prepare chicken breasts, or anything like that.

One of my friends - who I will call Bob - his breakfast might be Poptarts. Morning snack of coffee and a cinnamon roll. For lunch he eats a big ass plate Chinese takeout or pizza. Another snack of Doritos and maybe a banana, and then he eats whatever he wants at night, including a big meal and often ice cream.

"Bob" eats more or less like an average person. He eats a couple of borderline healthy meals, and the rest of his day he eats small junk snacks.

Anyway, I am not trying to imply that I have all the answers on this topic. My greater point is that I believe too many lifters under-eat when trying to gain muscle mass. Especially young guys with fast metabolisms.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:19 AM   #32
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Well, I think there are many trains of thought on this. There are bodybuilders and there are powerlifters. Maybe a few hybrids. I can NOT buy into the dirty bulk of eating anything and everything if you are a "bodybuilder". It is lazy and irresponsible and unnecessary. Taking the easy way imo. Instead of a clean bulk that takes effort, sacrifice, and discipline. If you don't have what it takes for those 3, you probably won't look like a bodybuilder.

If you are a true power lifter and just want to be strong. Eat well and eat junk too.

Now there are other variables too. How about test levels...whether they are natural or not. How about age. How truly active are you? If you dirty bulk at an old age and want to be a bodybuilder, you better have some true discipline or a good source for high test levels to help you burn through the lard.

If a person claims diet is "everything", I think you'd hear that more from a bodybuilder type than a powerlifter. Powerlifters just eat <---lucky bastards
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:08 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I assume we're talking someone that doesn't train?
No no. What do I care about someone who doesn't train, right? Any nutrition consideration I make/have is related to someone who trains.

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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
but it's hard to eat clean and get enough calories for many of these guys.
Now this is a good point. I remember a post from you on whole milk and it made a lot of sense in this regard.

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But I would also add that I have some large natural powerlifting friends that eat like utter crap, and they have enough muscle to make the average bodybuilder-trainee look small.
Could be genetics or something though, right?

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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Anyway, I am not trying to imply that I have all the answers on this topic. My greater point is that I believe too many lifters under-eat when trying to gain muscle mass. Especially young guys with fast metabolisms.
I think you're right in this. I know I under eat. My concern is simply that when I decide to bulk (about 6 mo. out I'm thinking), how clean do I eat? I know I won't just 'dirty' bulk. Regardless of anything we've discussed I CANNOT eat like that. Sat fat/sugar dumped into my stomach and I get Acid reflux so bad I want to die at night. I just can't eat too much of that stuff. But that's irrelevant to the broad discussion.

It's an interesting topic for sure.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:30 AM   #34
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I can NOT buy into the dirty bulk of eating anything and everything if you are a "bodybuilder". It is lazy and irresponsible and unnecessary.
I don't think anyone has advocated that. Young hardgainers with fast metabolisms may have to eat more junk then the average bear, but these extra calories don't replace healthy food.

I always recommend eating 25% dirty, after clean food and whole milk. I think most of us eat poor each week...a donut here and there, some beer, whatever. By "dirty", I mean food choices that may contain "junk" that we don't normally eat, such as a piece of deep friend chicken, or a helping of potato salad with mayo. I'm not talking strictly crap foods like ice cream and chips, but moreso any food consumption that isn't locked down tight and clean.

For me on my cut, I still eat 20% dirty. I have a Little Debbie once a day, and have "looser" meals twice a week, such as a frozen pizza, or deep fried buffalo chicken. My calories are in line, but I allow myself dirty food.

Most bodybuilders eat "dirty" each week. Of course, this percentage varies, but few eat perfectly clean, all the time. For those trying to gain weight/muscle, I recommend upping this percentage of dirty food. I am not advocating eating Crisco and oreos, but merely adding a piece of cheesecake (or 2), or piece of fried chicken and a small bag of Doritos. Something like that to bump calories up.

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Instead of a clean bulk that takes effort, sacrifice, and discipline. If you don't have what it takes for those 3, you probably won't look like a bodybuilder.
I want to play the Devil's advocate for a second. If the addition of 500 to 750 more calories above maintenance per day, dirty or clean, can allow you to add 5 more pounds of muscle your first couple of years, but would also cause you to add 5 more pounds of fat each year, would you do it? And do you consider this undisciplined?

To be honest, I think we are splitting hairs Rick. My advice is generally for those who can't or haven't gained. Guys that have gained know their body, and what works. Most guys that haven't gained aren't eating as much as they think they are.

My point in bringing up my powerlifting friends was merely to express that food/calories heightens anabolism. I in no way am advocating an undisciplined, Wild West approach to eating. But I do believe that extra calories amplifies results from hard training.

Can trainees gain on a clean bulk? Of course. Can a new trainee make maximum gains by eating 300 calories above maintenance year round? I don't believe so. Dirty or clean, whole milk or Doritos, I simply don't believe that staying tight to maintenance is the best way to gain muscle.

But there are many, many variables to this issue. The primary variable is "training experience." New lifters gain at a faster rate, and I believe they should eat more. With each year of training, how much you eat above maintenance should decrease, because gains are slowing due to natural limits

Casey Butt analyzed muscle gain potential as follows:

Year 1 = 16 pounds
Year 2 = 8 pounds
Year 3 = 4 pounds
Year 4 = 2 pounds
Year 5 = 1 pounds

Based on personal experience, I believe this to be an accurate portrayal of the gains curve. I would add that caloric intake should follow a reverse curve. There is no point in hogging out after you are near your natural potential. These extra calories will be stored as almost all fat.

I believe that a year one trainee should eat about 750 to 1000 calories above maintenance, at least for the first 6 months, to insure maximum results. This, of course, is simply a ballpark number. It is up to each individual to adjust on the fly, based on how their body is reacting.

After 6 months, and after this individual has learned their body's react to over-eating, a course correction will take place, and calories will slowly decrease. I can see working you way to a strict clean bulk of +300 calories after 2 years.

I think where we are really splitting hairs is simply over what a beginner should eat. Anyone that has already gained 20 pounds of muscle shouldn't be eating much more than 300 cals over maintenance. It's pointless.

I also caution that most beginners really don't have a grasp one what their maintenance levels are. So undereating, or strict clean eating runs the risk of shortchanging "noob gains."

Everything in this post is merely my opinion, and I hope I haven't pissed anyone off too much.

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Old 03-01-2010, 11:33 AM   #35
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No no. What do I care about someone who doesn't train, right? Any nutrition consideration I make/have is related to someone who trains.
The studies I had posted were relating to untrained individuals, so I wanted to make certain what sheet of music we were on.


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Could be genetics or something though, right?
Certainly.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:39 AM   #36
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Everything in this post is merely my opinion, and I hope I haven't pissed anyone off too much.
Not a chance. Very civil and informative conversation.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:49 AM   #37
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No, that stuff you said makes sense Steve. And I think we are somewhat on the same page.

But I can't do the little debbies or the pizza anymore
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:53 AM   #38
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Not a chance. Very civil and informative conversation.
I'm glad. Because I'm a firm believe that everything works, just not for everyone. We each have our own set of goals and priorities. I think both clean and dirty bulking are viable, and the factors that make them viable to each individual are numerous.

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No, that stuff you said makes sense Steve. And I think we are somewhat on the same page.

But I can't do the little debbies or the pizza anymore
Beer and sausage?
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:28 PM   #39
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I'm glad. Because I'm a firm believe that everything works, just not for everyone. We each have our own set of goals and priorities. I think both clean and dirty bulking are viable, and the factors that make them viable to each individual are numerous.



Beer and sausage?
Lean Deer sausage yes, beer no. I've switched to Scotch and Water
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:47 PM   #40
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I think there needs to be a distinction made as to what constitutes a "good diet". If by good diet you mean that your PCF ratios must be exactly in line with what some online calculator told you was 500 above your maintenance with no fats pre or PWO and no simple carb's or fun ever, then I say NO that's never more important than your weight training. If, however, by a good diet you mean getting enough calories to grow, then I don't believe anything is more important to grow in strength and size.

I trained for around 2 years making reasonable strength gains but with next to no size gains because I never ate carb's in decent enough quantities! As soon as I got a handle on my diet and ate a reasonable amount of food I found that I could weight train with less frequency, sometimes only twice per week, but still make better size and strength gains than before. My work capacity in the gym was increased and my capacity for progression was that much larger. I always had the desire to SFW, but with the extra food I also had the energy and raw material to actually grow in strength and size.

Diet and the desire for progression are like yin and yang: they have to be balanced. Too much attention on diet and you'll become like so many other bb.com OCD'ists. Too much attention to weights whilst neglecting diet either means you become a bit fluffy round the edges or (even worse IMO and this is what I did) you'll stay skinny despite busting your a*s in the gym every week.

Like everything in life you should strive for a balanced postion.

Just my two cents

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