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Old 08-17-2012, 06:44 PM   #21
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Do you think that lack of experience comes into this all-or-nothing thinking? I wonder if a lot of the acolytes are very young guys?
I do think that's a big part of it. Another huge part of this equation, as we have seen with Mike Mentzer, is having a ringleader who is extremely logical, passionate and persuasive.

These types of comments against frequent feeding, which I receive with a high frequency, are always vitriolic and for the most part cookie-cutter in nature. I know this is bound to offend some of those in the intermittent fasting camp, but I am trying to be honest without sounding condescending - the comments sound like typical parroted responses, the kind you see on a forum that has a strong leader, where dissension of opinion is often smacked down with the supreme standard.

Every forum has that to a degree, but at the end of the day I think most of us tend to look at training and diet as more of a gray area, rather than black or white like Mike Mentzer.

My impression is that most of these individuals are being equipped at Leangains.com. I certainly hate to paint Martin Berkham as another Mike Mentzer, but if people are going to start turning things into black and white while ignoring the fact that most lifters are not using intermittent fasting and they are not suffering from it, I think many people will make that type of conclusion.

The intermittent fasting attackers are very much like HIT proponents. They do not see things as gray. They stand 100% against frequent feeding.

Perhaps the science is on their side. Perhaps bodybuilders can thrive on only 1-2 meals per day, or 3-4 meals per day instead of 5-8. I certainly am not against intermittent fasting as a possible option. It's just that every bodybuilder in the past 30+ years, natural and not natural, has been successful without intermittent fasting. They might eat every 4 hours, or 5 hours, or 2-3 hours, but they are not using intermittent fasting.

This tells me the issue is not black or white.

I still think progressive, consistent training is a bigger factor.

There are a lot of guys losing fat with intermittent fasting. There are a lot of guys with a nice amount of muscle using intermittent fasting. Have I seen any naturals use intermittent fasting and really pack on 25-30 pounds of quality muscle mass is 3 years like the following young lifters I have done transformation stories on? No. Not yet. Perhaps we will soon.

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Old 08-17-2012, 06:49 PM   #22
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The thing with intermittent fasting, the big question for those that are trying to gain muscle is: Are they eating the required calorie intake for that purpose during their eating "window"?

That may well be something that is not occurring.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:41 AM   #23
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I'm on IF now for couple weeks. I feel stronger, I'm breaking my PR everyday, my weight is still the same. What changed, I feel, I'm bigger a little, but as an endomorfph I probably gained a lot of water. I really dont look better on my stomach line. I see veines on shoulders, tricep, but my stomach is (I think) bigger.

I would like to know ur opinions about it. I suppose that because of larger carbs intake I feel more fatty than I really am. On low carb i felt great, but i hated doing meal every 3-4 hour...
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:06 PM   #24
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There is no one set way in my opinion. always varies from body to body. Lets use Back loading as an example.
Some guys never count what they eat and lose weight.
Some guys will eat lots of junk and lose while others will backload oats, yams and rice.
Same idea with varied methods.
all about finding what works best for you.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:41 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I do think that's a big part of it. Another huge part of this equation, as we have seen with Mike Mentzer, is having a ringleader who is extremely logical, passionate and persuasive.

These types of comments against frequent feeding, which I receive with a high frequency, are always vitriolic and for the most part cookie-cutter in nature. I know this is bound to offend some of those in the intermittent fasting camp, but I am trying to be honest without sounding condescending - the comments sound like typical parroted responses, the kind you see on a forum that has a strong leader, where dissension of opinion is often smacked down with the supreme standard.

Every forum has that to a degree, but at the end of the day I think most of us tend to look at training and diet as more of a gray area, rather than black or white like Mike Mentzer.

My impression is that most of these individuals are being equipped at Leangains.com. I certainly hate to paint Martin Berkham as another Mike Mentzer, but if people are going to start turning things into black and white while ignoring the fact that most lifters are not using intermittent fasting and they are not suffering from it, I think many people will make that type of conclusion.

The intermittent fasting attackers are very much like HIT proponents. They do not see things as gray. They stand 100% against frequent feeding.

Perhaps the science is on their side. Perhaps bodybuilders can thrive on only 1-2 meals per day, or 3-4 meals per day instead of 5-8. I certainly am not against intermittent fasting as a possible option. It's just that every bodybuilder in the past 30+ years, natural and not natural, has been successful without intermittent fasting. They might eat every 4 hours, or 5 hours, or 2-3 hours, but they are not using intermittent fasting.

This tells me the issue is not black or white.

I still think progressive, consistent training is a bigger factor.

There are a lot of guys losing fat with intermittent fasting. There are a lot of guys with a nice amount of muscle using intermittent fasting. Have I seen any naturals use intermittent fasting and really pack on 25-30 pounds of quality muscle mass is 3 years like the following young lifters I have done transformation stories on? No. Not yet. Perhaps we will soon.
The more I think about this post, the more I agree with it.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:56 PM   #26
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Tann--I echo your earlier comments on people misunderstanding of how science works and how scientific conclusions are formed over time and via repetition of experiements and studies.

This "debate" reminds me of something I heard (Again) yesterday:

"You can choose your own opinion, but you can't choose your own facts."

What galls me the most about people like those in the IF group is the sheer, wanton arrogance to disregard approaches that have a proven track record of success with others.

AN approach doesn't mean the ONLY approach. We don't know enough about human biology to understand the intersections of genetics and the emergence of various diseases/ailments (or not). For example, we know that some people drink and do drugs and smoke and never get addicted or develop cancers, while others get "sick" right away.

Why would muscle-building be any different?
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:17 PM   #27
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In few weeks I start probably paleo style diet, but I am affraid a little, because i train sometimes twice a day (bjj and lifting). I dont know how my organism survive through so many training sessions without carbs like a rice, pasta, oatmeal etc. ;/ Thx for reply
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:31 PM   #28
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In few weeks I start probably paleo style diet, but I am affraid a little, because i train sometimes twice a day (bjj and lifting). I dont know how my organism survive through so many training sessions without carbs like a rice, pasta, oatmeal etc. ;/ Thx for reply
With MMA, thats alot of calories expenditure, not sure if paleo style is really needed.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:41 PM   #29
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This is thread I am afraid of
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Old 08-23-2012, 05:29 PM   #30
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In few weeks I start probably paleo style diet, but I am affraid a little, because i train sometimes twice a day (bjj and lifting). I dont know how my organism survive through so many training sessions without carbs like a rice, pasta, oatmeal etc. ;/ Thx for reply
With cardio intense activities the body seems to do well on carbs; with lifting related activites, I've read that the body relies on fat as it's primary fuel.

Whether that is correct or not I've no idea but it may explain why some styles of diets suit one individual but not another, depending on what they are doing.

We have people carb-backloading, lifters and it's working for them, however, a freediver would protein backload (in the evening) and carb frontload prior to the day's diving.

Trial and error might be the easiest way for each person to work out what works for them.
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