Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Muscle Building and Bodybuilding
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-01-2012, 07:44 PM   #11
bamazav
Bigger, Stronger, BAMA!
Max Brawn
Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
 
bamazav's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 4,977
Training Exp: 5
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Squats
Fav Supp: Deadlifts
Reputation: 222686
bamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJosh View Post
I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed in the way this OP is getting lectured with hard line opinions regarding overtraining.
While I understand there is debate over what overtraining is and how and when it is achieved and the general semantics of the matter, but the poster was simply asking what the symptoms are.
End of story. Not asking if his "routine was overtraining" or is he overtraining or anything of that matter.
Yet it kind of seems like he is being lectured about how he doesn't need to worry about it because he likely isn't overtraining. That seems a little hardlined and condescending to me.
Overtraining or over reaching or under recovering (what ever you care to call it) does exist and there are symptoms. Why the need to rant at this guy?

That's just my observation and opinion. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone. But I think MaB is better than this. Maybe I'm reading to much into this and I apologize if I am.
BigJosh, I respectfully disagree. I, for one, never mentioned the OP at all in my post. My intention was in no way to degrade the OP but to discuss the topic the OP raised. I stated that it was my opinion, which is all that it is, take it for what it is worth. I admit I did use the pronoun "you," but not in the sense of identifying the OP solely, but in a generic second person plural form. I guess I should have used my more natural Ya'll.

He opened the door for discussion. If all he wanted was a succinct answer like OR's, this thread would be done. If there was no need or desire to evoke a discussion of the topic of over training, I apologize and I ask everyone to please disregard my previous statements as the ramblings of crazy ole madman.
__________________
David, Husband, Father, Pastor
(Yasen Miroslav Zavadil)

Meet Maxes: Gym Maxes:
Squat 308 315
Bench 176 185 This WILL change!
Deadlift 408 375

Shooting for a 1000+ total for next meet, spring/summer 2015. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
bamazav is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 04-01-2012, 08:03 PM   #12
BigJosh
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 11,344, Level: 70 Points: 11,344, Level: 70 Points: 11,344, Level: 70
Activity: 17% Activity: 17% Activity: 17%
 
BigJosh's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central California
Posts: 4,066
Training Exp: 7-8 years
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Bench Press and Curls Bro
Fav Supp: Opti-Men Multi Vit
Reputation: 241059
BigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamazav View Post
If you are just starting and worried about over training, give up and go home. .
He simply asked the symptoms of overtraining and this is the first line of what I feel is a condescending diatribe.
Because he asked a question to increase his knowledge you told him he just should give up now.


Further more, I didn't bother quoting, but you go on to say that the average gym goer cannot overtrain because they do not work out hard enough. Not only is this point condescending but it is a rather arrogant generalization of people who go to the gym. Pretty broad paint brush you are using here.


I guess I am your "average gym goer". And I can honestly sit here and say in the past I have experienced symptoms of overtraining, over reaching and/or under recovering (or whatever anyone wants to call it)


I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong, I am merely stating what it looks like from my perspective. If you do not agree that is ok. this is not a discussion where one side must win and one side must lose. You are a husband, father, and pastor and if you do not agree with my assessment I respect that because I am not anyone special or worthy of passing judgement.
__________________
Zdravko Veselin Gaeta

I am not a powerlifter nor am I a bodybuilder. I just want to be big and strong.
Quote:
[Today 05:50 PM] BendtheBar: Write that quote down
[Today 05:50 PM] BendtheBar: If I am going to be a bro, I am going to be the best
Make gains, not excuses.
BigJosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 08:23 PM   #13
bamazav
Bigger, Stronger, BAMA!
Max Brawn
Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
 
bamazav's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 4,977
Training Exp: 5
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Squats
Fav Supp: Deadlifts
Reputation: 222686
bamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJosh View Post
He simply asked the symptoms of overtraining and this is the first line of what I feel is a condescending diatribe.
Because he asked a question to increase his knowledge you told him he just should give up now.


Further more, I didn't bother quoting, but you go on to say that the average gym goer cannot overtrain because they do not work out hard enough. Not only is this point condescending but it is a rather arrogant generalization of people who go to the gym. Pretty broad paint brush you are using here.


I guess I am your "average gym goer". And I can honestly sit here and say in the past I have experienced symptoms of overtraining, over reaching and/or under recovering (or whatever anyone wants to call it)


I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong, I am merely stating what it looks like from my perspective. If you do not agree that is ok. this is not a discussion where one side must win and one side must lose. You are a husband, father, and pastor and if you do not agree with my assessment I respect that because I am not anyone special or worthy of passing judgement.
Josh, while I can certainly see what you are saying, and as I said, "I respectfully disagree," one of the things that makes forums, text and emails a poor way to communicate is that the presence of written text is totally emotionless. The reader is left to himself to interpret emotion, intent and motivation of the writer based solely on the context. However, in a forum format such as this, context is often difficult to ascertain. "Am I responding to the post immediately above mine, two, three or four posts back? Am I running off into left field? Am I just trolling?" Context is not always that clear. English doesn't always help, as I sought to point out earlier. "You" can be a 2nd person singular, 2nd person plural or a 3rd person singular formal. Context will not always make that clear.

I am sorry if I offended in any way, that was not my intent. As I stated, I had no intention of talking down any individual. I did express my opinion and, as I said, it is just that, my opinion. I stand by it. My request is that we all not automatically jump to the conclusion that a post on this site that doesn't jive with our line of thought is a personal attack meant to tear someone down. I respect you and the OP, I may see things differently than you, him or most everyone else on the board, but you all are challenging me to think through what I think and believe on this subject and a host of others. I appreciate the differences, as they help me grow and I hope in some small way I can help others.
__________________
David, Husband, Father, Pastor
(Yasen Miroslav Zavadil)

Meet Maxes: Gym Maxes:
Squat 308 315
Bench 176 185 This WILL change!
Deadlift 408 375

Shooting for a 1000+ total for next meet, spring/summer 2015. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
bamazav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 08:43 PM   #14
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,937
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

I've heard the arguments that overtraining doesn't exist, but I've experienced CNS overtraining 3x. Just be careful to balance the bravado of naysayers with the experiences of others.

Granted, it's nearly impossible for me to achieve. Then again, I am not trying to train 3 hours a day. But I have experienced severe CNS fatigue on 3 occasions, each time following heavy squat max attempts.

In each of these 3 cases, the next time I squatted 135 felt impossible during warmups. I felt completely shut down, and further attempts to warmup were dangerous, to say the least.

I've also experienced acute cumulative fatigue which I can only call overtraining from a 4 month stint I did with volume training in 1988. My felt like it was run over by a train.

Currently I reach stages in my training where I know I am overreaching. Continuing to push at these stages is a dangerous game. Call it what you want, but I could move from overreaching to injury in no time. Injury would most certainly be a form of overtraining.

I have said it before and I will say it again, most times the comments against overtraining are more aimed at the common beginner-type fear that has invaded this industry, and not aimed at overreching and pushing too hard, which is something Jamie Lewis has done himself.

Each of us has to make adjustments so we stay healthy and train efficiently. Keep the pendulum in the center, and not too far off to one side. Overtraining is hard to achieve. With that said, it's not a license to train foolishly.

One thing I dislike about overtraining argument is the obsession with turning it into a black or white issue.

Train smart.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #15
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,937
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

I have to interject and say I didn't take Bama's comments on overtraining as being directed at the OP. Bama doesn't do business like that.

His greater point was a big one...there is too much worry. If you're training reasonably it's not something you will ever really need to worry about. Problems enter when you train unreasonably, don't listen to your body, don't eat properly, etc.

I respect both you guys and I don't want this to turn sour. We all know that if someone is training reasonably, which is hard to get beginners to do, that overtraining is not an issue. But, we also know that even if they are training reasonably, they are programmed to fear overtraining to such a degree that they over-worry about everything.

I think we all agree on these points. MAB exists to get people on reasonable, effective programs. This is hard to do, but once on these programs overtraining isn't generally anything anyone will ever need to worry about.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 08:55 PM   #16
bamazav
Bigger, Stronger, BAMA!
Max Brawn
Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
 
bamazav's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 4,977
Training Exp: 5
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Squats
Fav Supp: Deadlifts
Reputation: 222686
bamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master member
Default

BTB, maybe much of the confusion, even in this thread is with the definition of "overtraining." In the e-books being written by MAB maybe the development of a good working definition would be helpful.
__________________
David, Husband, Father, Pastor
(Yasen Miroslav Zavadil)

Meet Maxes: Gym Maxes:
Squat 308 315
Bench 176 185 This WILL change!
Deadlift 408 375

Shooting for a 1000+ total for next meet, spring/summer 2015. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
bamazav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 09:00 PM   #17
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,937
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamazav View Post
BTB, maybe much of the confusion, even in this thread is with the definition of "overtraining." In the e-books being written by MAB maybe the development of a good working definition would be helpful.
I agree. I think most of the time we're debating definitions and degrees. It's such a broad, overused term that it's become somewhat paper thin, with a different meaning for everyone.

I also think we need to fairly analyze each area of the body that can be impacted by training (CNS, joints, muscles, etc.), and mention common programming issues that can push things too far.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 10:04 PM   #18
BigJosh
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 11,344, Level: 70 Points: 11,344, Level: 70 Points: 11,344, Level: 70
Activity: 17% Activity: 17% Activity: 17%
 
BigJosh's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central California
Posts: 4,066
Training Exp: 7-8 years
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Bench Press and Curls Bro
Fav Supp: Opti-Men Multi Vit
Reputation: 241059
BigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master memberBigJosh is a master member
Default

I meant no disrespect and I apologize if there was some misinterpretation on my part. I know bama is a valued and respectful member. I meant nothing personal by my comments.
Sorry for derailing this thread.
__________________
Zdravko Veselin Gaeta

I am not a powerlifter nor am I a bodybuilder. I just want to be big and strong.
Quote:
[Today 05:50 PM] BendtheBar: Write that quote down
[Today 05:50 PM] BendtheBar: If I am going to be a bro, I am going to be the best
Make gains, not excuses.
BigJosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 10:16 PM   #19
MVP
Liftin' heavy
Uber Brawn
Points: 1,278, Level: 19 Points: 1,278, Level: 19 Points: 1,278, Level: 19
Activity: 61% Activity: 61% Activity: 61%
 
MVP's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: WV
Posts: 368
Training Exp: +9 years
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: ANIMAL PAK
Reputation: 13484
MVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributorMVP is a dedicated contributor
Default

The article I posted by Christian Thibadeau sums up what is widely accepted as the general definition amongst CNS overtraining.

I've said this before, but IMO, overtraining can mean different things.

When you run, you overload your cardiopulmonary system.

When you train, you overload your muscles.

While you can't overtrain a muscle, and it's difficult to overtrain your nervous system, what about the endocrine system? Doesn't hours of working out flood the endocrine system? Doesn't cortisol elevation make you catabolic and cortisol elevation often come from excessive exercise? Would that not be a definition of overtraining?
__________________
Personal Trainer- ACE, NASM AFPA; Nutrition Consultant- AFPA

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." - Philippians 4:13"
MVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 09:27 AM   #20
TitanCT
Manlet of Malice
Max Brawn
Points: 10,355, Level: 67 Points: 10,355, Level: 67 Points: 10,355, Level: 67
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: CT
Posts: 1,415
Reputation: 110787
TitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master member
Default

so much overthinking, too much reading, and not enough learning your body.

simple if youre doing a shit ton of working out and losing size or not making consisitent gains. its not working...try doing less.
TitanCT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
overtraining, symptoms


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Overtraining E_Barnes Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 6 06-18-2012 07:05 PM
Overtraining? CNS? miked96 Powerlifting & Strength Training 45 03-02-2012 10:54 AM
You are overtraining... dmaipa General Board 13 11-13-2010 09:54 AM
Am i overtraining? knudci Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 15 03-09-2010 04:34 PM
Overtraining 101 Iron Gladiator General Board 0 12-19-2009 08:07 AM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.