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Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

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Old 03-05-2012, 09:45 PM   #11
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Let me summarize my bloated post.

In muscle building I believe you move from point A to B to C. Point A to B is about 85% of your gains, a point past which most never see. To move from A to B you need to get much stronger, using sensible and level-appropriate rep ranges, volume and exercises, and not much else.

If you add periodization to this, that's ok. At some point in your intermediate journey it's hard to lift week in and out heavy all the time. Many elite bodybuilders still do, but that's a topic for another thread. I never periodized, but then again I used a split so my rest management was not in the context of a fullbody.

If you change between similar exercises occasionally, that's ok. As long as they are similar, and not a step down.

In making the journey from point A to B, of the two I believe swapping exercises could be a waste of time. If can be utilized, but it's not a requirement. With that said it could be detrimental if not used properly.

Bottom line...get to point B. Get stronger. Everything else, if reasonable, is personal preference. Let it be known that I consider point B to be a lot stronger than most people will ever get, probably around a 300-400-500 total or even a little more.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #12
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It seems that at some point if you're bodybuilding you need to periodize a fullbody or move to a plan with more rest between days like an upper lower split or a full blown bodybuilding split. I don't see many bodybuilders periodizing weight so it would make sense to go HLM or add more rest days at some point.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:31 AM   #13
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It seems that at some point if you're bodybuilding you need to periodize a fullbody or move to a plan with more rest between days like an upper lower split or a full blown bodybuilding split. I don't see many bodybuilders periodizing weight so it would make sense to go HLM or add more rest days at some point.
Good post. I think that sums up what I was going to say. I've been reading bodybuilding magazines for decades and I don't recall much periodization talk. We talk about strength training here and deloading but I really have no clue if bodybuilding and frequency would have the same requirements.

Guess the question for me is if overreaching has value in bodybuilding?

Like BTB said I don't see most of this really mattering much until someone has substantially increased their strength. Using an HLM sounds solid but the focus is still on progression.

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Old 03-06-2012, 12:07 PM   #14
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Thank you for the interesting insights!

Well but doesn´t any body "believe" in the law of accomodation?
If the body adapted to the loading stimulus do you really never change anything?
It seems not understandable for me, that a trainee trains with the same programm forever.
I know thats a example out of the strength world, but also rippetoes training changes over time. The demands get bigger. (like from SS to TM)

Also casey advocates switching from HLM to HML over time. Or when staying with the same rep count to vary exercises to fullfill the HLM principle.

Also Stone (2007) has written about "overtraining" because of monotounos training.(same load, exercises) The CNS is no longer challanged-so you need to change something of course in the frame of your goals. And Stones work was not only based on scientific research but also from his work with athletes.

Getting stronger is always the cornerstone, but does not somebody need some variation /new stimulus to get stronger again?

Also I cannot imagine that someone for BB purpose is training his whole live German Volume training and gets still stronger on the 10x10 sets.
Thats why after 10x10 a 5x5 programm is advocated-to get stronger again and to let the body adapt to a new stimulus.

I know DE FRanco is a strength coach-but he stated regarding hypertrophy thats its best to change it as much up as possible.

I can only speak for myself-i reached my top weight 2 years ago with 98.5kg and 23%BF on 186cm height. Started with 68kg (BF unnknown but quite lean) but this was a decade ago. This was during a HLM cycle and a bunch of food.

But after deloading I stalled out. Does this mean I reached my 85-90% limit and that changing anything is worthless?

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Old 03-06-2012, 05:55 PM   #15
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I don't think it necassary to change lifts or sets/reps, but I think most people end up changing due to mental fatigue.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:00 PM   #16
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Dr. Ken Leistner used to say (and i paraphrase), A trainee could simply do a squat, a press, and a pull and reach 90% of their genetic potential in about three years. Food for thought...
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:34 PM   #17
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Dr. Ken Leistner used to say (and i paraphrase), A trainee could simply do a squat, a press, and a pull and reach 90% of their genetic potential in about three years. Food for thought...
Classic quote and something I personally believe.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
Dr. Ken Leistner used to say (and i paraphrase), A trainee could simply do a squat, a press, and a pull and reach 90% of their genetic potential in about three years. Food for thought...
Is Leistner not a protege of Jones and a HIT Jedi?

Also I found this quote:

"Perhaps you can alternate pressing movements every few weeks, every few workouts, every other workout. You will never suffer from lack of variety".
taken from:
http://www.cyberpump.com/preview/sense.html

Last edited by flow; 03-06-2012 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Is Leistner not a protege of Jones and a HIT Jedi?
Dr. Ken trained under Jones but his ideas vary slightly. He believes that one set is enough but also finds value in doing two or three sets. Dr. Ken also believes in barbells being more effective than machines and compounds being more effective than isolations. So ya, he's basically a HIT guy with an open mind
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:07 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
Dr. Ken trained under Jones but his ideas vary slightly. He believes that one set is enough but also finds value in doing two or three sets. Dr. Ken also believes in barbells being more effective than machines and compounds being more effective than isolations. So ya, he's basically a HIT guy with an open mind
Ah I see
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