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Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:55 PM   #11
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No problem...I was just looking for some feedback on the principles.Maybe I was just misinformed or confused about it. When looking at it I thought it included HIT and Mid to High Volume...basically the best of 3 worlds in one workout. I guess I was just wondering what kind of results or benifits you'd get if you incorporated it into a routine. Like,will it promote or trigger muscle growth and strength or just a waste of time?

For example: Legs 6 sets- 3 Squat 3-6 reps
2 Leg curl 8-10
1 Leg Ext 12-15
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:12 PM   #12
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I understand Max, it's not easy to read people on a new forum. But you can generally assume people are trying to be helpful around here.

As has been said a couple of times now SAID merely tries to explain stress adaption in the body. It is not a training routine.

You'll generally find that most around here emphasise the basic compound exercises with a big emphasis on getting stronger for medium to high reps. There really isn't a massive need for extensions or curls, as long as you're working hard on Squats they will mostly take care of it. You'll also often find recommended that people prefer Squats two or three times a week rather than once, but this will depend on your experience level and how much you are lifting. I saw your question in your other thread asking about Starting Strength, I think that would be more suitable for you than what you are suggesting here.

Good luck.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:34 PM   #13
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I just found the principal interesting and like discussing and debating methods,sciences and theories. I guess it was a hypothetical in if someone was going to try to incorporate that method of training into a routine would it work, but I guess it would depend on the person and their goals. Thanks for clearing it up.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:42 PM   #14
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I just found the principal interesting and like discussing and debating methods,sciences and theories. I guess it was a hypothetical in if someone was going to try to incorporate that method of training into a routine would it work, but I guess it would depend on the person and their goals. Thanks for clearing it up.
It is interesting, a very real on-going debate in the strength community is whether:

1) Specificity rules and to get stronger at a lift we should repeatedly do that lift

OR

2) Whether we can get stronger on a lift by not doing that lift.

In the first camp you have your proponents of what is commonly referred to as 'Russian' powerlifting routines. Masses and masses of volume using a variety of medium to high percentages on the same handful of exercises repeatedly. You could say that these routines take into account SAID.

In the second camp you have your proponents of WSB or Conjugate training. Volume is still generally high but is split between the main lift and other variations and assistance exercises.

As in most things in life, I don't think it is as black and white as that, when dealing with people, especially over the internet where training form, procedure, routine etc can not be regulated I think other factors come into play and a third more nuanced camp could be introduced. That's a very basic introduction, if you are really interested in some practical examples of these things being hashed out and your interest can sustain you for 50 pages then have a read through this, now rather large, thread:

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/tra...-strength.html

Last edited by Fazc; 02-28-2012 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:53 PM   #15
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OK ...I will and thanks for the info.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:54 PM   #16
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No problem...I was just looking for some feedback on the principles.Maybe I was just misinformed or confused about it. When looking at it I thought it included HIT and Mid to High Volume...basically the best of 3 worlds in one workout. I guess I was just wondering what kind of results or benifits you'd get if you incorporated it into a routine. Like,will it promote or trigger muscle growth and strength or just a waste of time?

For example: Legs 6 sets- 3 Squat 3-6 reps
2 Leg curl 8-10
1 Leg Ext 12-15
The primary driver of muscle gains is progression, meaning that no matter what you do, you need to get stronger doing it. That is the consistent theme that runs through any successful muscle building story. This is also why everything seems to work for muscle building.

Do anything and get stronger doing it, and you will build muscle.

There are other variables at play that you can tinker with, such as:

--Reducing Rest Between Sets (Rest-pause, Doggcrapp)
--Adding Volume
--Expanding Time Under Tension (Slow negatives, for example)
--Advanced Training Techniques (Supersets, Drop sets)

Truth is none of these are more important than improving overall strength over the first several years. You could bring any of the into play, but they will still require you to get much stronger while using them.

Rest pause systems such as Doggcrapp require you to get much stronger. HIT/Heavy Duty requires adding strength. Etc.

Bottom line really is this...if you're searching for a key to unlock gains it involves getting stronger. Over time you may need to add volume, cycle intensity, or add advanced training techniques to squeeze out the last 10-30% of muscle gains. But the primary driver for muscle building during the first 70-90% of gains (depending on how big you want to get) is going to be strength.

A beginner could start with 50 pound dumbbell bench presses and do drop sets, but if he doesn't add strength he will not build muscle. The body will adapt to this specific demand.

The easiest variable to increase is weight on the bar. The body can never adapt to progression of weight because it is always changing. Adjusting other variables like volume, rest, and advanced techniques can only go so far. They can be part of the equation, but they generally do not offer a wide enough range so you can continue to tweak them.

If you do a 185 pound set of squats for 10 reps over time you could add another set, then another, until you get to say 5 sets. Then over time you could reduce the rest between these sets to 30 seconds, and perhaps add in pre-exhaust and a drop set at the end. These changes are finite. They run their course sooner or later because the body adapts. You then arrive back at the need to get stronger.

I hope some of this helps. Some aspects are over-simplified.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:14 PM   #17
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One could ask...(I have been asked this question several times)

What if I do a HIT workout today, rest-pause next week, volume next week, heavy singles the next, constantly changing the stress?

Still have to get stronger.

Think about running one week, biking the next, swimming the next and sprinting the next. You never give yourself much of a chance to improve performance because you are constantly changing the type of stress. Sure, you would get sore, and you would probably be healthier, but you are not refining your focus enough to the point where you can really focus on performance.

If you did this for muscle building, your body would be busy each week dealing with different rest periods, or training to failure, or heavy weight, but you would be lacking the one focus that is most important...getting stronger.

If a program is not favorable for building strength then it's merely exercise.

You could periodize between different workout types if you had a progression plan. Here we are back at strength again.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:31 PM   #18
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Ya, very much so thanks. The dilemma I face at the moment is no gym and no 5 or 2.5 pd. plates,but Im still going to start a program and get some soon. In the mean time for example say Im doing 5x5 Squats with everything I have...should I start adding reps or sets? And at what point rep count.30-35 should I have some more weights for the 5x5 program to keep working. Honestly, I should probably start something else until I get the right equipment, correct?
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:58 PM   #19
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Not having a squat rack will be limiting too. I would suggest a routine based around the deadlift and perhaps paired with a lunge or split squat.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:25 PM   #20
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Not having a squat rack will be limiting too. I would suggest a routine based around the deadlift and perhaps paired with a lunge or split squat.
I do have one of those, it's on my bench,but this past winter I had a 300 pd. Oly.set but some come up missing...." I think someone grabbed them to add weight in their car for traction,not sure but someone was asking if I had any sandbags for that purpose"! .... But anyway If you get to a point when you can do 5x5 with everything do you add reps or a set to make up for the 5 or 10 pound.... or scrap it and find another routine?
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