Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Muscle Building and Bodybuilding
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-21-2011, 10:10 PM   #1
tank
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 5,446, Level: 47 Points: 5,446, Level: 47 Points: 5,446, Level: 47
Activity: 16% Activity: 16% Activity: 16%
 
tank's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NC, USA
Posts: 2,329
Training Exp: Rookie
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Squat
Fav Supp: Food
Reputation: 19889
tank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributor
Question Practical Programming Novice Question

I'm re-reading PP and was wondering if I could do madcow every other day per the novice training cycle or does the 3rd workout (friday) using new higher weights for 3 reps warrant 2 days rest afterward?

maybe i'm missing something in the novice programming, but it looks like taking the extra day off at the end of the week is slightly sub-optimal. what are your thoughts? thanks guys.
__________________
My Training Journal 5' 8" Current BW 207 (94) lbs (kg)

20 JAN 12 at 200 (90) BW - 385/275/405 (175/125/184) SQ/B/D

29 MAY 12 at 206 (93) BW - 135/175 (61/79) SN/CJ
tank is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-22-2011, 02:17 AM   #2
Spartigus
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 3,966, Level: 40 Points: 3,966, Level: 40 Points: 3,966, Level: 40
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
 
Spartigus's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,227
Training Exp: 4 years
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Squat & Quick Lifts
Fav Supp: Milk
Reputation: 14113
Spartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributor
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tank View Post
I'm re-reading PP and was wondering if I could do madcow every other day per the novice training cycle or does the 3rd workout (friday) using new higher weights for 3 reps warrant 2 days rest afterward?

maybe i'm missing something in the novice programming, but it looks like taking the extra day off at the end of the week is slightly sub-optimal. what are your thoughts? thanks guys.
Im going to take a stab at this, I am assuming you mean Practical Programming for Strength Training, because you referenced Madcow. So correct me if I am wrong on anything .

Anyway. You have to remember, Mondays workout is about doing enough volume to bring about Selye's 1st stage of adaption, Wednesday is about recovery helping with the 2nd stage of adaption, and Friday is about demonstrating your increased strength from the adaptions to Mondays workout combined with your rest.

Also the strength you can demonstrate is called "preparedness", which is the combination of your strength and fatigue. So after a 20 rep squat set, you can barely walk, it doesnt mean you are weak, it just means you have a lot of fatigue, preventing you from demonstrating your strength.

So to cut a longer story short, you wont recover in enough time, and as a result you wont be able to demonstrate strength on Monday and Friday, and you will accumulate a lot of fatigue, and possibly enter the dreaded 3rd stage. But you will end up missing reps.
__________________
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

"When in doubt, just get really, really strong. It tends to cure most problems in training – and life." - Wendler
Spartigus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 08:20 AM   #3
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,909
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2581830
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

What Spart is talking about is the dual factor theory of training. You have fitness and fatigue, and when overreaching in your training, you can become so fatigued that it hinders your performance/strength.

I just want to stress that dual factor theory is complex, not a program or system, and fitness and fatigue are always highly individual. Some workouts do a good job of pushing an athlete into the overreaching zone, and are structured to do so.

"Dual factor training" is a part of the Madcow advanced program. As far as the Madcow intermediate program, it's simply linear progression. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Even though the intermediate Madcow isn't a DFT program, it's still rapid, consistent progression. You will learn a lot during this time about what your body can handle. I would not drop any rest.

Ride the progression wave, learn more about what your body can handle, and give your body an extra recovery day. If you stick to the program you will be very strong in no time.

Hit that new PR on Friday and rest. Give the CNS and your joints and connective tissue and extra day of food and sleep.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 11-22-2011 at 09:38 AM.
BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 09:32 AM   #4
Off Road
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
Off Road's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,607
Reputation: 786994
Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!
Default

Really good inteligent answers!
As a general rule of thumb: If you are working your whole body intensely, you should have more rest days than work days.
Off Road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 11:44 AM   #5
tank
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 5,446, Level: 47 Points: 5,446, Level: 47 Points: 5,446, Level: 47
Activity: 16% Activity: 16% Activity: 16%
 
tank's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NC, USA
Posts: 2,329
Training Exp: Rookie
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Squat
Fav Supp: Food
Reputation: 19889
tank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributor
Default

Yes, you were right on both counts, Practical Programming for Strength Training by Rippetoe and Madcow’s intermediate program. Thanks everyone for your knowledgeable and quick responses. That’s a good rule of thumb, also. I was looking at the novice parameters and thinking that if one could recover from workout A in 48 hours to be prepared for workout B then back to workout A 48 hours later why not continue every 48 hours. What I didn’t consider was that it is not A and B and really it’s A, B, and C; each workout with different intensities and because it increases weekly it is approaching the lifter’s 1RM more closely each week. So, because the lifter can recover and be prepared from workout A for workout B, he wouldn’t necessarily be more prepared for workout A 48 hours after workout C because of the level of intensity (the proximity to 1RM).

Is this correct?
__________________
My Training Journal 5' 8" Current BW 207 (94) lbs (kg)

20 JAN 12 at 200 (90) BW - 385/275/405 (175/125/184) SQ/B/D

29 MAY 12 at 206 (93) BW - 135/175 (61/79) SN/CJ
tank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 12:24 PM   #6
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,909
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2581830
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Madcow...Workout A is actually the hardest of the week. It will use the new weight increase for a set of 5 reps, where on the previous Friday you performed only 3 reps with this weight. In addition, your ramping sets will all be slightly heavier than the ramped sets from last Friday's workout.

So Mondays will have more intensity. Fridays have less volume, and less average intensity per rep.

Let's look at this example.

Week 1
MONDAY - 135, 185, 225, 275, and then 315 for 5 reps. 5675 pounds total.

FRIDAY - 135, 185, 225, 275 for 5 reps. 325 for 3 reps, 225 for 8 reps. 5500 pounds total.

Week 2
MONDAY - 145, 195, 235, 285, and then 325 for 5 reps. 5925 pounds total.

The volume increase from Monday to Monday is 250 pounds, as the average intensity per rep has gone up.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 12:35 PM   #7
tank
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 5,446, Level: 47 Points: 5,446, Level: 47 Points: 5,446, Level: 47
Activity: 16% Activity: 16% Activity: 16%
 
tank's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NC, USA
Posts: 2,329
Training Exp: Rookie
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Squat
Fav Supp: Food
Reputation: 19889
tank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributortank is a dedicated contributor
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Madcow...Workout A is actually the hardest of the week. It will use the new weight increase for a set of 5 reps, where on the previous Friday you performed only 3 reps with this weight. In addition, your ramping sets will all be slightly heavier than the ramped sets from last Friday's workout.

So Mondays will have more intensity. Fridays have less volume, and less average intensity per rep.

Let's look at this example.

Week 1
MONDAY - 135, 185, 225, 275, and then 315 for 5 reps. 5675 pounds total.

FRIDAY - 135, 185, 225, 275 for 5 reps. 325 for 3 reps, 225 for 8 reps. 5500 pounds total.

Week 2
MONDAY - 145, 195, 235, 285, and then 325 for 5 reps. 5925 pounds total.

The volume increase from Monday to Monday is 250 pounds, as the average intensity per rep has gone up.
ah, that's right. so, i had the concept correct just not the workout which confuses me again.. theoretically shouldn't the following be true, then?:

recovery from B to C or C to A in 48 hours does not mean that recovery would necessarily be the same from A to B, because A is the most intense.

that's the reason for the lighter workout B, but why 2 days rest after workout C?
__________________
My Training Journal 5' 8" Current BW 207 (94) lbs (kg)

20 JAN 12 at 200 (90) BW - 385/275/405 (175/125/184) SQ/B/D

29 MAY 12 at 206 (93) BW - 135/175 (61/79) SN/CJ
tank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 12:48 PM   #8
Off Road
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
Off Road's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,607
Reputation: 786994
Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!
Default

Look at it this way...
Even if you did the exact same workout on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, you'd still want to take the weekend off. Not because Friday's workout was somehow different than Wednesdays, but because of cumulative fatigue.
Off Road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 01:01 PM   #9
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,909
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2581830
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tank View Post
but why 2 days rest after workout C?
You want to be as rested as possible before your heaviest day.

Also, while building strength on linear progression these is little reason to also start increasing volume or frequency. Rest. There is a lot happening. Workout intensity is increasing each week. Your muscles, CNS, joints tendons and ligaments are all adapting to demands. There are many levels of recovery taking place.

The program becomes more difficult each week. It is in your best interest to maximize recovery while milking linear progressing to help stave off strains, pains and fatigue. It makes the most sense to be the most recovered prior to your heaviest day of the week.

At one point early in my life I made the mistake of increasing frequency and trying to push progression too quickly. I threw out my back and strained my shoulders.

Take this time to listen to your body, so when you may need to increase frequency you are better tuned in to your body.

You can add a lot of strength very quickly with these types of programs. Enjoy the weekends.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 11-22-2011 at 01:04 PM.
BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 03:28 PM   #10
Spartigus
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 3,966, Level: 40 Points: 3,966, Level: 40 Points: 3,966, Level: 40
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
 
Spartigus's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,227
Training Exp: 4 years
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Squat & Quick Lifts
Fav Supp: Milk
Reputation: 14113
Spartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributorSpartigus is a dedicated contributor
Default

Also as you start getting further into the program, and the weights get heavier, you will find you want/need the weekend off.
__________________
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

"When in doubt, just get really, really strong. It tends to cure most problems in training – and life." - Wendler
Spartigus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
novice, practical, programming, question


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MAB E-Book: Novice Workouts First 4-6 months+ BendtheBar Training Resources 2 04-03-2012 10:07 AM
Novice training and splits MikeC Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 18 08-11-2011 06:10 AM
A.S. Prilepin’s Scientific – Practical Contribution to the Intensification of the Mod BendtheBar Articles 0 07-24-2011 06:28 PM
Strongman Training Made Practical Iron Gladiator General Board 0 10-28-2010 09:21 AM
Anyone read Practical Programming by Rippetoe? BendtheBar Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 0 07-31-2010 07:38 AM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.