Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Muscle Building and Bodybuilding
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-25-2011, 02:44 PM   #11
Soldier
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78
Activity: 89% Activity: 89% Activity: 89%
 
Soldier's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Hood, Tx
Posts: 4,037
Training Exp: On and off for 17 years.
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Bosu kickback pistols
Fav Supp: Crack on a trisket
Reputation: 243699
Soldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
True. Conditioning and gains are 2 parts of the same coin.

I will add this to the discussion...I have never met a weak pro natural bodybuilder, and I work with a lot. To a man they are much stronger than they think.

For example...in working with Mr. North Carolina Joe Ohrablo, I encouraged him to get involved with a powerlifting meet. He said he wasn't that strong. His raw lifts are a 585 pound deadlift, 500 (or more) squat and around a 400ish bench....at a weight of 210-215 (I think).
Yes, but that strength is a byproduct of the quest to look good (or maybe it's the other way around and the person decided to become a bodybuilder later, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.).

I'm not saying that someone has to choose one or the other when it comes to strength or looks, but if someone is training with the purpose of being a bodybuilder, the combinaiton of muscle size and conditioning is all that matters, not how much you can squat.
__________________
Current PRs at 242, raw w/ wraps- 525, 355, 605, 1485
Roboro tui, perimo vester adversarius
(Build yourself, destroy your enemy)
Soldier is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 10-25-2011, 03:28 PM   #12
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier View Post
...the combinaiton of muscle size and conditioning is all that matters, not how much you can squat.
This is turning into a very popular line that I hear over and over.

The silent implication is that somehow you can sculpt, pump and shape your muscles to grow hugely massive without ever being strong.

Fact is, the evidence just does not bear that out.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2011, 03:55 PM   #13
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,783
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier View Post
Yes, but that strength is a byproduct of the quest to look good (or maybe it's the other way around and the person decided to become a bodybuilder later, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.).
For naturals it's not the byproduct but rather the driving mechanism. The progression that occurs during the first 2-4 years of training creates the bulk of gains a natural will experience during the course of their training life.

After that point, when gains slow, the driving mechanism remains the same. Progression is still required.

While all sorts of training techniques and approaches may be implemented to challenge the body, without progression they are limited in effectiveness.

Experienced AAS users often require intense contractions to repair/stimulate damaged receptors, so they tend to focus on a lot of voo doo at this advanced level other than pure progression (FST-7 for example), but for naturals I do not personally believe it is needed. I am convinced that the fastest way to get big and strong is with a quality exercise selection, persistence and progression.

Squats as an example...There are plenty of naturals that squat under 250 pounds. They end up placing very low at their shows because of poor mass and symmetry. Conditioning still wins shows, but after you've been to a few natural shows it becomes very apparent who isn't lifting heavy weight. There are a lot of competitors with very weak legs and backs.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 10-25-2011 at 04:08 PM.
BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2011, 07:24 PM   #14
Soldier
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78
Activity: 89% Activity: 89% Activity: 89%
 
Soldier's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Hood, Tx
Posts: 4,037
Training Exp: On and off for 17 years.
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Bosu kickback pistols
Fav Supp: Crack on a trisket
Reputation: 243699
Soldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
This is turning into a very popular line that I hear over and over.

The silent implication is that somehow you can sculpt, pump and shape your muscles to grow hugely massive without ever being strong.

Fact is, the evidence just does not bear that out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
After that point, when gains slow, the driving mechanism remains the same. Progression is still required.
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. All I'm saying, all I ever said, is that in a bodybuilding competition looks are all that matter. I'm not really sure how anyone can argue that this isn't the case. Did I ever say that lifting heavy is not needed? Hell no. Did I ever say that progression is not needed? Not only did I not say that, but I in fact said that volume is ONE METHOD of using progression that works very well for bodybuilders.

I also said that as people adapt to certain levels of training they have to find ways to subject their muscles to new levels of stimulation. How is that NOT progression?

If I silently implied anything than I apologize, but in the end a powerlifter wins by lifting 1 more lb or kg than the competition. That extra lb or kg wins him a trophy, and means absolutely nothing to a bodybuilder.

(for some reason I kept writing "lb of kg". I really meant "lb OR kg", out of respect for my international brethren.)

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I really do apologize for not explaining myself better. Please know that I actually agree with everything you guys are saying. I just want to clarify what I said earlier.
__________________
Current PRs at 242, raw w/ wraps- 525, 355, 605, 1485
Roboro tui, perimo vester adversarius
(Build yourself, destroy your enemy)

Last edited by Soldier; 10-26-2011 at 06:41 AM.
Soldier is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2011, 10:32 PM   #15
Off Road
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
Off Road's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,606
Reputation: 786994
Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier View Post
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well.
I understand where you're coming from. Bodybuilders are all about how the weight hits their muscles, not how much they can lift. They would rather use 300 lb squats and really hit their quads than using more low-back and heaving up 400 lbs. They still use weight progression, but not at the expense of hitting the target muscles effectively.
Off Road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 06:55 AM   #16
Soldier
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78
Activity: 89% Activity: 89% Activity: 89%
 
Soldier's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Hood, Tx
Posts: 4,037
Training Exp: On and off for 17 years.
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Bosu kickback pistols
Fav Supp: Crack on a trisket
Reputation: 243699
Soldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master memberSoldier is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
I understand where you're coming from. Bodybuilders are all about how the weight hits their muscles, not how much they can lift. They would rather use 300 lb squats and really hit their quads than using more low-back and heaving up 400 lbs. They still use weight progression, but not at the expense of hitting the target muscles effectively.
To a point, yes, that's what I mean, but I also agree with the other guys in that if someone CAN squat 400 instead of 300 they PROBABLY will be able to build bigger muscles in the long run.

However, if someone can use 300lb to build huge legs through volume (or NOT through volume, maybe he's just genetically gifted), then in a bodybuilding comp he's going to kill a guy who can squat 600 but isn't able to use it to build massive and cut legs. Will the heavy squatter probably have bigger legs? Yup, but in the end it only makes a difference if it leads to bigger legs and bettter looks.
__________________
Current PRs at 242, raw w/ wraps- 525, 355, 605, 1485
Roboro tui, perimo vester adversarius
(Build yourself, destroy your enemy)
Soldier is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 10:14 AM   #17
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

I think there's actually quite a simple reason that volume is generally preferred in Bodybuilding:

If you're training with maximal or near maximal weight, something close to your 1RM, your points of failure may well be not be muscular. They may be neuromuscular, you may have exhausted your short-term energy supplies or you may just slip out of the groove. There are a multitude of reasons why on any particular set of maximal weight training you might be forced to stop, and that could and does happen before your muscles have been exhausted.

If you're training with a higher level of volume, ergo a lower percentage of your 1RM, it's less likely you'll stop for neuromuscular reasons, less likely you'll stop for structural reasons or for slipping out of the groove or any of the multitude of reasons that you may stop with a maximal weight. The muscles really are the main determinant of whether you fail or not if the weight is lower, once the muscle has been exhausted you'll fail. Because of the nature of muscles themselves they will probably be under tension for considerably longer as well.

So there you go, I don't think it needs to be as complicated as muscle fibers and sarcoplasmic whatevers, or as head-in-the-cloud as talking about finesse and sculpting. It's really quite simply a matter of what fatigues first.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 10:30 AM   #18
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,783
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier View Post

I also said that as people adapt to certain levels of training they have to find ways to subject their muscles to new levels of stimulation. How is that NOT progression?
All advanced training techniques or systems will eventually require some form of weight progression. If you reach the point in bench press where you don't want to use 315 for reps, and prefer to work with 225 in a rest-pause manner, if you use the same sets, reps and weight your body will adapt very quickly and have no reason to gain.

At this point you will need to find some manner of increasing progression. You could continue to reduce rest down to 10 seconds between sets, but eventually you will arrive back at the need to add more reps with a weight, and finally more weight.

Absolute weight lifted is not important, but progression is. These concepts are not the same thing.

Bodybuilding requires progression, or going an extra step to challenge a muscle.

Powerlifting is all about going as far as you can on the journey.

While the end goals are different, the journeys are not as different as we like to paint them. Rep ranges and approaches might be different, but progression is still the primary tool.

Again, I've never met a weak pro natural bodybuilder. Most of them are brutally strong. Perhaps it would help the discussion if we talked about muscle building and not just the sport of bodybuilding. For 98% of use, bodybuilding is muscle building and not tights and oil.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 10:31 AM   #19
Rich Knapp
Wheelchair Pro
Max Brawn
Points: 27,020, Level: 97 Points: 27,020, Level: 97 Points: 27,020, Level: 97
Activity: 3% Activity: 3% Activity: 3%
 
Rich Knapp's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 6,046
Training Exp: > 13 years
Training Type: Bodybuilding
Fav Supp: AAEFX's whole line.
Reputation: 148270
Rich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier View Post
To a point, yes, that's what I mean, but I also agree with the other guys in that if someone CAN squat 400 instead of 300 they PROBABLY will be able to build bigger muscles in the long run.

However, if someone can use 300lb to build huge legs through volume (or NOT through volume, maybe he's just genetically gifted), then in a bodybuilding comp he's going to kill a guy who can squat 600 but isn't able to use it to build massive and cut legs. Will the heavy squatter probably have bigger legs? Yup, but in the end it only makes a difference if it leads to bigger legs and bettter looks.
Agree. Mass don't always lead to separation or striations. You get to a point were pure mass all your muscles bleed together and don't show muscle maturity or separation especially if you can't diet down were every part of your body is ripped. (The body burns fat stores in different regions at a time) A upper body may be ripped while the legs still hold fat and need more weeks of dieting to cut up.
This is actually a fail fail many amitures. This and not enough Ham or Glut work. Again "Can't see it in the mirror, so don't work it."
__________________
DFAC Wheelchair Rep.
"3D Muscle Journey" Sponsored Athlete
"If you think your lean enough. Your 4 weeks out, keep going."
Rich Knapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2011, 10:35 AM   #20
Rich Knapp
Wheelchair Pro
Max Brawn
Points: 27,020, Level: 97 Points: 27,020, Level: 97 Points: 27,020, Level: 97
Activity: 3% Activity: 3% Activity: 3%
 
Rich Knapp's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 6,046
Training Exp: > 13 years
Training Type: Bodybuilding
Fav Supp: AAEFX's whole line.
Reputation: 148270
Rich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master memberRich Knapp is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Rep ranges and approaches might be different, but progression is still the primary tool.
Yep, weather it more reps with a certain weight (as long as you don't do a stupid amount of reps and make it all endurance training) or if its increasing the weight.
__________________
DFAC Wheelchair Rep.
"3D Muscle Journey" Sponsored Athlete
"If you think your lean enough. Your 4 weeks out, keep going."
Rich Knapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
bodybuilding, volume


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bodybuilding volume question TitanWIP Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 2 05-15-2012 08:08 PM
Soldier's high volume training, high volume fat log Soldier Training Logs 196 10-23-2011 03:25 PM
About Training Volume BendtheBar Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 0 05-29-2011 09:32 PM
Volume and Density BendtheBar Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 2 04-20-2011 06:53 AM
Increase Your Increase Your Lean Muscle Mass Through Lower Volume Bodybuilding Traini Dork McSchlorp General Board 0 07-13-2010 04:30 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.