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Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

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Old 10-06-2011, 09:58 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I strongly disagree with this. Especially if muscle retention is the primary goal.
That's fine if you disagree, but what's your reasoning?
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:03 AM   #22
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That's fine if you disagree, but what's your reasoning?
Your body has built muscle in response to a stimulus. Take away that stimulus and you're liable to lose muscle mass.

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Old 10-06-2011, 10:09 AM   #23
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That's fine if you disagree, but what's your reasoning?
You need to do everything you can to encourage muscle retention while in a deficit. The body needs every reason to hold onto muscle mass when calories are scarce.

You don't change programming dramatically when going into a cut. If you drop 40% of your volume (for example) you are sending a signal that you will no longer be working as hard.

The body responds to very specific imposed demands (SAID). You never want to change volume or average intensity when cutting because the body will most certainly react.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:15 AM   #24
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Your body has built muscle in response to a stimulus. Take away that stimulus and you're liable to lose muscle mass.

LtL
This is where I come in and say that I strongly disagree with you guys.

Stimulus is tension, which is why you keep the weights high. More volume causes more fiber damage, and when your body's last concern is retaining an energy-costly tissue (muscle mass), your calories and proteins are going to go elsewhere. Instead of having you just take my word for it, and quoting this article section by section, have a read for yourself:

Fat Loss for Athletes: Part 3 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:29 AM   #25
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Shadow - I have nothing against Lyle but the recommendations that I make are based on what I have done in my training and what I have found worked for me. IMHO experience gained is far better than experience read.

Also higher training volume means you can eat more calories and still lose weight which is quite clearly a win.

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Old 10-06-2011, 10:34 AM   #26
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Shadow - I have nothing against Lyle but the recommendations that I make are based on what I have done in my training and what I have found worked for me. IMHO experience gained is far better than experience read.

Also higher training volume means you can eat more calories and still lose weight which is quite clearly a win.

LtL
So then your recommendations are based on personal experiences and opinions? I'm not trying to be an ass, but I believe you already know that I'm good for information I provide, and I believe you know what my opinion is on person experiences over science.

LtL, I've got nothing against you and you know that. Lyle is not my only source stating the same thing... When have I ever made a post that I cannot back up when countered?
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:58 AM   #27
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Let's look at Lyle's statement:

Quote:
If anything, the frequency (and especially the volume) of high-intensity work should be reduced somewhat when calories are restricted to avoid over training in the long-run.
Lyle is advocating the reduction of the volume of high intensity work, which in lifting circles equates to low rep, heavy weight lifting (training @ 85-90% plus). He is not generically advocating the reduction of volume on non-high intensity work. In fact, other statements in that article reveal that he strongly encourages lifters to stick with heavy work, which for bodybuilders means sticking with the weight, sets and reps they are currently using.

This isn't going against what I am talking about because most advanced bodybuilders aren't doing a lot of high intensity 85-90%+ work to begin with.

Let's say a bodybuilder IS training with some form of cyclical periodization, and has low rep, high intensity days. Lyle isn't advocating that the lifter drop the volume, but rather back off the volume of high intensity work. These are two different things.

You can maintain the same approximate workload while restricting your 85-90%+ sets.

Simply stated, Lyle and I aren't in disagreement. Lyle is calling for the reduction of the frequency and volume of high intensity sessions, which is heavy weight, low rep. Most bodybuilders don't use this style of training so it's a non-issue.

Lyle is not, that I can see, advocating a blank reduction in volume. In fact, the following statement would reveal otherwise:

Quote:
One approach that is all too commonplace in the weight room (and this is an idea that came out of bodybuilding in the 80′s) is that heavy weights should be replaced by higher reps for cuts. While this certainly works when anabolics are present to protect muscle mass, it’s absolutely the worst thing that a natural athlete can do to maintain muscle mass.
Here Lyle is saying...(paraphrase) Do NOT drop heavy weight for lower weight and higher reps. Lyle knows, and states, this is the worst thing you can do. And it's exacting the point I am trying to get across to you.

Heavy weight in this context is not "high intensity". Heavy weight means sticking with the weight, set and reps you were using prior to cutting.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:01 PM   #28
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So then your recommendations are based on personal experiences and opinions? I'm not trying to be an ass, but I believe you already know that I'm good for information I provide, and I believe you know what my opinion is on person experiences over science.

LtL, I've got nothing against you and you know that. Lyle is not my only source stating the same thing... When have I ever made a post that I cannot back up when countered?
Shadow this isn't personal. I prefer to use methods that have been tried and tested, mostly by me, rather than relying on "scientific" studies. When I start seeing guys in lab coats in my gym training, I'll listen to them

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Old 10-06-2011, 12:19 PM   #29
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Lyle is advocating the reduction of the volume of high intensity work, which in lifting circles equates to low rep, heavy weight lifting (training @ 85-90% plus).
No one was recommending, including yourself, that you drop intensity and pick up volume. In your own words, and in bold, is the point that I'm getting at. We lift at high intensities, and I'm advocating a reduction in the volume of that high intensity work.

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Shadow this isn't personal. I prefer to use methods that have been tried and tested, mostly by me, rather than relying on "scientific" studies. When I start seeing guys in lab coats in my gym training, I'll listen to them

LtL
You don't use that logic when it comes to nutrition, regardless of the aesthetics of the body of the researcher who provided the information...

A lot of what we do in the weight room has been derived from scientific research, just as much as it has from personal experience.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:33 PM   #30
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No one was recommending, including yourself, that you drop intensity and pick up volume. In your own words, and in bold, is the point that I'm getting at. We lift at high intensities, and I'm advocating a reduction in the volume of that high intensity work.



You don't use that logic when it comes to nutrition, regardless of the aesthetics of the body of the researcher who provided the information...

A lot of what we do in the weight room has been derived from scientific research, just as much as it has from personal experience.
Science often follows what happens in the weightroom. Seldom is it the other way around. Nutritionally maybe but not in terms of lifting.

In what way do I not use that theory when it comes to nutrition? I tested Blakeley's bulking on myself, it seems to work. Would I recommend it to others? Maybe, maybe not but I can give an informed opinion. Same with keto diets. I had success last year and learnt a lot through my experimentation. I don't recommend things purely based on scientific studies.

Anyway, enough talk, I'm going to go and squat.

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