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Old 10-06-2011, 07:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by flow View Post
true.

what you might consider? A plus of 300?

I want to eliminate unnecessary fat gain-but i know that the same way i set myself short of gains.
I understand what you want, but I want to help you understand that its not quite feasible. In order to build muscle, you need extra calories. Not all of those calories are going to go straight to muscle gain. Its a sad fact that we have no control over.

With that being said, the goal here is to add muscle mass, while adding minimal fat. In order to do this, we want to add 300-500 calories above our maintenance calorie intake. Personally, I would probably lean towards 500 or a little higher, especially if you're naturally skinny. With this surplus, your body won't be adding much fat at all. Realistically, a pound of fat is about 3500-4000 calories. So in order for you to gain a pound of fat, you'd have to sit on your ass and not use those additional calories. Even then, it would take you about 7-8 days to gain 1 pound. So its not like your fat gain is going to be rampant; especially since you'll be training.

Some people run diet cycles; particularly those who are prone to fat gain. You might run 2-3 months (or longer) of surplus, and then 2-4 weeks in a deficit. Depending on how your body is responding, and how much fat you're putting on, you would adjust this cycle to suit your needs.
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
From Wendler, thought it might give you something to think about when setting up a HML 5/3/1...

This is obviously inspired by some of Bill Starr’s (and thus Mark Rippetoe) training; I give them thanks for the inspiration. As you can see, you have a press, squat and a pull each day. But each day has a “heavy” emphasis. And you always squat first. Because squatting is better than anything else.

Monday

• Squat – 3 sets of 5-10 reps (using deload percentages)

• Deadlift – 5/3/1 sets and reps

• DB Bench – 3 sets of 8-20 reps

Wednesday

• Squat – 3 sets of 5-10 reps (using deload percentages)

• Bench Press – 5/3/1 sets and reps

• DB Row – 3 sets or do Kroc Rows

Friday

• Squat – 5/3/1 sets and reps

• Press – 5/3/1 sets and reps (or do another pressing assistance exercise in its place)

• Chins or T-Bar Rows – 3-5 sets of whatever reps you want, usually 5-30 reps.

Notes:

• Start with sets of 5 on the “light” squat days. You can work your way up to sets of 10 but you don’t have to.

• You can structure the training however you see fit but this template is probably the best I’ve trained with.

• I’ve been doing this since type of split since my accident – my training log hasn’t been telling the whole truth as I didn’t want to answer questions about the training until I knew the answer.

• This works well and is fun. I take some long breaks between the exercises because I use the weight room to get stronger not to “tone”.

• I don’t compromise on my training or on my workouts – if you want to change something, do so and see if it works. I can’t endorse anything I don’t do personally.

• Eat. Sleep. Mate. Defend.

-Jim Wendler
thank you for the post!

Well, how should the assistance work be cycled then?

Perhaps one cycle higher volume(sets across) and the other ramped sets?

Like: 4 weeks flat dumbbel benching for 4x8-10 and 2 min rest.
Next 4 weeks: decline dumbbell benching to one top set of 15-20 reps.

Repeat.

I know that on wendlers template the important thing is the the progression on 531 on the main lift. but progressing on the "bodybuilding" work should happen too IME.
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:43 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Pull14 View Post
I don't believe the HLM format you outlined will benefit someone lifting only 2 times a week. Best bet is to go with something similar to what Off Road posted above (Jim's full body 5/3/1) or something similar to Wendler's 5/3/1 2x Week template:

Day 1 - Squat 5/3/1, Bench 5/3/1, and some assistance work
Day 2 - Deadlift 5/3/1, Press 5/3/1, and some assistance work.

Don't have to use 5/3/1 but stick with the basic template/format.
Thank you.

Well the clue on the HLM format is, that the H days should recruit the FT fibers and prepare the tendons and joints for heavier loads.

To recruit the FTs you can either lift a submaximal load near/to failure or lift in the 90% range.

So incorporating the 531 for the H day would be a smart idea from you. Especially because the loads are cycled here.
The only thing which is important IME is, that this H day should work with the L and M days. also casey butt stated the point.
So i think its neccessary, that the weight of the L and M day-or the "accessories" are lower than the load used on 531.
Couldn´can that get a little tricky? The beginning weight when starting with 531 is quite light, so probably the accessory work would use a similar load-or when doing one top set even a heavier one. (E.G i think of dips here)
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Pull14 View Post
I don't believe the HLM format you outlined will benefit someone lifting only 2 times a week. Best bet is to go with something similar to what Off Road posted above (Jim's full body 5/3/1) or something similar to Wendler's 5/3/1 2x Week template:

Day 1 - Squat 5/3/1, Bench 5/3/1, and some assistance work
Day 2 - Deadlift 5/3/1, Press 5/3/1, and some assistance work.

Don't have to use 5/3/1 but stick with the basic template/format.
Good idea.

I will eventually flip the assistance work or better do do 531 on all exercises one day. i need stimulate chest and shoulders 2x the week and it seems that i need one workout with "similar" paramters" so no mixed ones:
Once i did 5x5 heavy and 2x15 on one day:So 5x5 bench and 2x15 shoulders and the next time reverse order. it didn´t worked out.
when i did 5x5 for all lifts one day and 2x15 for all lifts the other i progressed again.

Would it be useful to use 531 for a main lift per "muscle group"?
chest (bench) and shoulders (press) are covered in the template. but wouldn´t some rowing movement ( i regard deads as "pull" but no "row") or/and lat movement lead to more balance (antagonists for bench and press) and would also lead to better gains?

Also thibadeau often advices in his splits a "heavy movement" per "muscle group" and then lighter ones for the same.

why should the "back" or the horiziontal and vertical pulling movements should be treated different than shoulders and chest?

So it may not be optimal (because of fatigue) but something to consider might be:

1.day: 531
Deads in conjunction with Squat
Barbell Bench
chest supported row (because of fatigue of deads)
Press
chin up
abs

2.day: Accessory: 4x8-10 2min rest.Next cycle other exercises and one top set of 15-20 reps.

Lunges/good mornings
dumbbel bench
cable row
dumbbell press seated
pulldown
tric pushies
abs
some curl


Also its possible that 531 for one main pull and push movement is enough for stimulation. (bench covers tric and shoulders too-of course depending on leverages and technique; and the row most part of the back)
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:00 AM   #15
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So i think its neccessary, that the weight of the L and M day-or the "accessories" are lower than the load used on 531.
You're overthinking things a bit too much. My weight on accessories never surpasses my big lift days.

My opinion is that on a 2 per week you don't need HLM. Stick to the John Christy workout of the variation Pull posted.

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/ful...-thread-2.html

Here is the Christy program which can be used as a template:

Quote:
Day one

1. Crunch 1 x 5-20 (choose a ‘fixed’ rep target between 5 and 20 reps)
2. Squat 2-5 x 5-15
3. Stiff-legged deadlift or back extension 1 x 10-15
4. Bench press 2-5 x 5-15
5. Pulldown, Chin, or Row 2-5 x 5-15
6. Calf raises 1 x 5-20
7. Static grip 1 x 60-90 seconds

Day two

1. Sidebend 1 x 5-15
2. Deadlift 2-5 x 5-15
3. Military press 2-5 x 5-15
4. Barbell curl 2-5 x 5-15
5. Close-grip bench press 1-3 x 5-15
6. Wrist curl 1 x 15-20
7. Reverse wrist curl 1 x 15-20
Also, again I want to ask what your lift totals are right now?
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:10 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Where are your lifts at currently?

Sometimes programming can get a little too overbaked or overdone before linear progression has worked it's course.

Edit: This was in reference to a 2 day per week program, which can be easily programmed ala John Christy or like the template that mimic's the John Christy method without need of HLM.
Hi steve, nice that you chime in!

Well we had our conversation in some old thread:

I own chistys work and also had mail consulation with him (god bless).

He also adviced his template but that didn´t worked so he also suggested a bit of intensty variation in a cycle.

Some time ago i also tried the Generic bulk by lyle mc donald-but didn´t worked too-thats why i returned to HLM because it provided gains again.

Well my lifts on my last heavy day for example were:

dips+27.5 kg 3x3
chin up: BWx5x4x4 (they suck)
press seated: 55kgx5x5x8
deadlifts: 90kgx10x15 ( i started doing them some weeks ago and wanted to start lighter- i also prefer deads instead of squats: they fit my leverages more)
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I understand what you want, but I want to help you understand that its not quite feasible. In order to build muscle, you need extra calories. Not all of those calories are going to go straight to muscle gain. Its a sad fact that we have no control over.

With that being said, the goal here is to add muscle mass, while adding minimal fat. In order to do this, we want to add 300-500 calories above our maintenance calorie intake. Personally, I would probably lean towards 500 or a little higher, especially if you're naturally skinny. With this surplus, your body won't be adding much fat at all. Realistically, a pound of fat is about 3500-4000 calories. So in order for you to gain a pound of fat, you'd have to sit on your ass and not use those additional calories. Even then, it would take you about 7-8 days to gain 1 pound. So its not like your fat gain is going to be rampant; especially since you'll be training.

Some people run diet cycles; particularly those who are prone to fat gain. You might run 2-3 months (or longer) of surplus, and then 2-4 weeks in a deficit. Depending on how your body is responding, and how much fat you're putting on, you would adjust this cycle to suit your needs.

true. somethings i have to consider.
suprisingly my kcal intake over the half year was stable. i didn´t increased or reduced it . So it suprised my that i gained muscle and fat during this time.
Perhaps its also the macros and my age (30).

but true words you say-thank you.
So in a gaining phase one could do 531 and acessories. and in the cutting phase limiting the work to only 531..
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:48 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by flow View Post
true. somethings i have to consider.
suprisingly my kcal intake over the half year was stable. i didn´t increased or reduced it . So it suprised my that i gained muscle and fat during this time.
Perhaps its also the macros and my age (30).
If you were eating at maintenance, then I would say your maintenance was probably a little off. Keep in mind these calculators are not exacts.

Quote:
but true words you say-thank you.
So in a gaining phase one could do 531 and acessories. and in the cutting phase limiting the work to only 531..
If you're entering a cycle of calorie deficits, then you want to reduce your training volume. I'd recommend by a 1/3 of whatever it is that you're doing. Keep the intensity high, but be careful not to burn yourself out.
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:51 AM   #19
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If you're entering a cycle of calorie deficits, then you want to reduce your training volume.
I strongly disagree with this. Especially if muscle retention is the primary goal.

I do not recommend making any arbitrary changes when going on a cut. Train the same way.
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:57 AM   #20
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Some time ago i also tried the Generic bulk by lyle mc donald-but didn´t worked too-thats why i returned to HLM because it provided gains again.

Well my lifts on my last heavy day for example were:

dips+27.5 kg 3x3
chin up: BWx5x4x4 (they suck)
press seated: 55kgx5x5x8
deadlifts: 90kgx10x15 ( i started doing them some weeks ago and wanted to start lighter- i also prefer deads instead of squats: they fit my leverages more)
A few more questions...how long have you been resistance training in general, and what does your squat number look like?

Even the ability to do one chin up is good.

Quote:
He also adviced his template but that didn´t worked so he also suggested a bit of intensty variation in a cycle.
What about it didn't work?

And what about Lyle's approach didn't work?

Were you still eating at a deficit during these times? And was John aware of this?

Just trying to get a bigger picture of what is taking place.
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