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Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

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Old 09-20-2011, 07:47 AM   #1
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Default Lean Bulking vs Bulking

I guess the title is a little misleading but where this thread has come from is a discussion I was having with Rich Knapp in the SB about how he bulks off season. What I would like to hear in the thread is people's views on (c)lean bulking where you are looking to gain mass in a very structured fashion vs just plain old bulking. My discussion with Rich centred around how far over show weight he would go and what the relative merits are of going 20lb's over vs 30 etc.

Keen to hear what you all think.

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Old 09-20-2011, 07:55 AM   #2
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In my limited leymans knowledge of this I would say that I cant see the benefits of adding 30lbs of fat, v's adding 20lbs of fat, if it is not bringing much more muscle with it.

I think it is very highly dependant upon the individual. For exampl someone that is near their genetic potential, or older (as metabolism works differently as you age) would not see the benefits of an all out 'eat as much as you can' bulk as there is only finite amounts of muscle that they can build, therefore they would be better off (c)lean bulking, otherwise come 'cut' time they are just going to have more fat to lose and the chance of losing muscle is greater, putting them either back to where they started, or worse with less muscle.

Now if you are a fair bit off your 'potential' then I think you can aggresively bulk much more productively as OK you will be gaining fat, but you will be gaining muscle, hopefully, just as rapidly (well not AS rapid, but you get my drift). Plus if you are younger the body is more efficient at making muscle (i think) and so more of those calories will be turned to muscle, than someone 20 years older who may just gain fat. Then when it comes to cut time, as long as you do it slowly you can hold on to more muscle...

If you are older AND way of your potential, then i think somewhere in the middle would suffice, as you wont be as effective at making muscle, but as you have more muscle to potentially make you have more room for the growth if that makes sense.

Just my veiw, but i could be way off the mark...

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Old 09-20-2011, 08:04 AM   #3
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This was a great talk in SB. Yes I will be going back to bulk and will be maintaining 20 lbs of fat weight in my bulk. I will track my LBM so I know were I'm at and when I need to up my intake or cut back.
If you don't track and know were you are at you have no idea if what you are doing is working or if just your arm to mouth is.

In my opinion adding more than 20 lbs of fat weight over show weight (the natural pro BBer norm) is just adding fat cells that you will never ever loose and just that many more to shrink down when you want to trim down or get cut.

There is no way I will burn threw 20 lbs of fat energy in one 35 set work out and tap into muscle.

The body can only produce .5 lbs. of LBM in a week any more naturally is imposable.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:09 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Rich Knapp View Post
This was a great talk in SB. Yes I will be going back to bulk and will be maintaning 20 lbs of fat weight in my bulk. I will track my LBM so I know were I'm at and when I need to up my intake or cut back.
If you dont track and know were you are at you have no idea if what you are doing is working or if just your arm to mouth is.

In my oppinion adding more than 20 lbs of fat weight over show weight (the natural pro BBer norm) is just adding fat cells that you will never ever loose and just that many more to shink down when you want to trim down or get cut.

There is no way I will burn threw 20 lbs of fat energy in one 35 set work out and tap into muscle.
So does that mean whilst you have sufficient fat to maintain you through a workout your body doesnt start breaking down the muscle. You hear so much of the you're body will go catabolic after an hour and the workouts will be counter productive, as the muscle starts to get used not the fat... and that you shouldnt do cardio after weights as that will burn the muscle away too...

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Old 09-20-2011, 08:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Carl1174 View Post
So does that mean whilst you have sufficient fat to maintain you through a workout your body doesnt start breaking down the muscle. You hear so much of the you're body will go catabolic after an hour and the workouts will be counter productive, as the muscle starts to get used not the fat... and that you shouldnt do cardio after weights as that will burn the muscle away too...

Carl.
After a hour your natural growth hormones are shot anyways.
Most of them studies are also to promote a Pre W/O sup, and how many people w/o in here don't take a food source/protein with in a 2 hour window of w/o? Any more than 30g's Pro in this window puts you into protein syntheses for 4 hours (well past your w/o ).

You will go catabolic in your 8 hours sleep and burn more muscle than you will in a w/o. Even taking in a protein, BCAA or Luecine pre bed.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:13 AM   #6
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I've been meaning to write something about this for a while; in my opinion quite a few parameters need to be met before people have any business in bulking. Otherwise it will end up in just getting fat.

More to come, when I've had my tea.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:16 AM   #7
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In for EPIC thread....

*gets pipe and slippers and relaxes in a rocking chair*

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Old 09-20-2011, 08:33 AM   #8
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This is something about which I need more knowledge. I am nearing the edge of what I can do as far as gaining muscle and, thus, will need a cleaner, more precise diet in order to minimize fat gains. My bulk has been successful thus far, and I have gained a fair amount of fat. I get worried from time to time about being able to lose some of it if I ever feel like I need to go into damage control.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:45 AM   #9
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I gained 5 lbs over night. Day before I fully depleted Glycogen store with a 50 hard set w/o. The next day ate 7g's of carb for each lb. of LBM. Little spill over but this 5 lbs was replenish Glucagin stores and water IN muscle tissue. So this was a good gain. Now if I ate the same way for 3 more days the aditional 98% of the gains would be bad.

It takes only 20 sec's for the body to replenish Gucagin stores between heavy lifts.
I agree with Fazc. If you just starting out and you are only lifting weights that burn 100 cals a w/o eating 5000 cals over daily needs isn't going to do anything but put fat on.


I also agree about a P/L getting, sorry but yes fat, to shorten how far they need to lift the weight (12" vrs 24-30" ). Going down as far as bber have to is way harder than 1/2 way up like a P/L with a big belly thus less weight used.

I'm not bashing or anything So don't think I am. Its just 4th grade science on leverage and energy vrs distance of work.

But this thead isn't about that ( BBer or P/Ler ) its about the style of bulk and when, why, how, and when.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:03 AM   #10
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We need to make sure we differentiate between goals. This post is about muscle building.

How aggressive you bulk when building muscle as a natural should depend on how much muscle you've already packed on, and how close you are to your natural potential.

When you are a novice you will gain muscle rapidly the first couple of years, and should eat a bit more aggressively. After that point, adding muscle takes time, and eating aggressively can add a lot of fat over this journey.

Another factor is age. Hormonally driven younger lifters can afford to eat more and should. Someone starting in their late 30s will generally have to be more precise for obvious reasons.

One thing I will say on this topic is that forums are filled with lifters unwilling to eat enough. There are many guys training hard who don't eat enough and aren't making substantial gains, and who aren't close to their natural potential yet.

I know some pro bodybuilders that have run way too tight for years and years. They are killing it in the gym but never add any substantial amount of muscle. And they are far away from their natural potentials.

I ate like a buzzsaw my first 3 years and my gains were fast and furious. If you need a visual perspective, think Graeme or Big55.

I have strong opinions about eating, and they are often misinterpreted as calling for lifters to get fat. This is far from true. I don't think if your first 3 years of hard training and aggressive eating that you're going to get fat. You're surely not going to become a sumo wrestler. But you will gain muscle, and a lot of it.

This is a tough discussion to have because there are far too many lifters on forums:

A) Not training hard enough who WOULD get fat from any bulk.
B) Not eating enough while training hard who don't add muscle and fear more calories feeling it's pointless.

There are a lot of opinions on this topic that confuse things because there are a lot of lifters not training hard enough for diet to matter.

I don't want to start a rumpus over this issue but I will this this...if you want me to train you, you will be working your ass off in the gym, and eating big to match. You will gain a lot of muscle in the first 2 years, and you might gain 10 pounds of fat.

Rapid gains has become a lost art.

I want to end with this one thought. I met a pro bodybuilder earlier this year. Spent a few days with him. He worked his ass off in the gym, and looks great in pictures, but in person with a t-shirt on you have no idea he's a bodybuilder. You have no indication whatsoever. He's been grinding it out for years, using a very tight diet.

I know another pro that is also a coach. A great guy. Knows everything on every topic, and very well respected. But if I showed you his picture in a t-shirt you would not believe he is a bodybuilder. His arms literally look 14 inches. I know he trains hard. So I ask you, what could be the issue?

MC from the forum eats big and looks like a bodybuilder in a t-shirt. He doesn't have any trophies, and maybe he will never be shredded, but I have the confidence that if I met him in public he would look beefy in a t-shirt.
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