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Old 07-10-2011, 07:57 PM   #1
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Default Two interesting ideas on fullbody.

So I am on full body workouts for like 4 months now.They kick ass,I love them.

I had two interesting ideas:

1)From what I have read,the body can benefit from up to 5 times training the same muscles in the same week.Would I benefit in better motor unit recuritment if I did my heavy training in the monring,and then repeat the same workout in the evening with like 50-60% of the weight i used in the first session.That would both burn more fat and wouldnt push the CNS to its limits.Yes it would be hard to do,especially in lifts like deadlift,but then again wouldnt it help in better motor unit recruitment?Maybe do this for two weeks,then stop for two weeks.Or train in thei fashion twice per week ,not three times.

2)Do the first day or the second day(each has 6 basic exercises) for a week straight.thats 3 sessions with as much as possible weight,in order to force the body to adapt in that range of movement and activate the CNS along iwth the motor unit responsible for thes emovements,n a better way.So week #1 do three times day #1,weeks #2 three times day #2. etc.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:23 PM   #2
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What you are talking about in 1 I think is eastern european bodybuilding were they will do 2 exercises in the morning that are two compound movements for 7x4 then that night they will choose two different lifts for "pump" work like 3x12.

Doug Hepburn also did something like this but in the same workout with the same lifts with 8x2 followed by 3x6.

I have never tried either (getting rdy to try something like the hepburn) but it is not fullbody it is a bodypart split. I also don't know to much about the subject so that is really all i know.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embrance View Post

1)From what I have read,the body can benefit from up to 5 times training the same muscles in the same week.Would I benefit in better motor unit recuritment if I did my heavy training in the monring,and then repeat the same workout in the evening with like 50-60% of the weight i used in the first session.That would both burn more fat and wouldnt push the CNS to its limits.Yes it would be hard to do,especially in lifts like deadlift,but then again wouldnt it help in better motor unit recruitment?Maybe do this for two weeks,then stop for two weeks.Or train in thei fashion twice per week ,not three times.
I have tried a workout where I was working each muscle group with one working set each day, for 5 days straight. It actually worked quite well. I felt good, my lifts were strong, and I set PRs.

I was also not taking it easy on the posterior chain. I started each workout with good mornings and ended with anything from zercher squats to speed deadlifts.

I stuck with this for a couple months and was pleased with the results.

When it comes to motor unit recruitment, I want to specify that I think this approach might work better for someone who has put in quite a bit of time with linear progression. I don't think it's any better for novices to intermediates than linear progression.

I am no expert on the CNS, but do focus on it quite a bit during my training sessions. I think there is a fine line between pushing too much too often for recruitment and injury.

While a muscle can handle training frequently, and while the CNS may be able to be trained using frequency, we also have to take into consideration joint recovery and connective tissue strength. This is one of the reasons I would not recommend this training style for intermediates and below. I don't think they understand their bodies well enough to reach a proper balance of frequency, intensity and volume.

I personally find that there is a greater impact from what I do during a workout, as far as CNS stimulation. Again, I can't speak for others. If I take the time and slowly ramp up in weight, it helps with my CNS and during my working sets. If I rush into my working sets without enough ramped singles (etc), my effort is generally sub-par.

I also notice a great benefit from doing my heaviest work first, and then jumping down for rep work. The bar always feels lighter, and the reps come easier and safer.

These forms of CNS stimulation nearly always pay off for me, as opposed to long term approaches. I have tried doing things like heavy walkouts and holds with supra-maximal weight, but in the long term I really didn't see much of a benefit.

Regarding your specific question, I am not sure how much CNS carry over you would have morning to night. I imagine some. I have never tried this style, but would be interested to hear what you think.

For pure bodybuilding/muscle building I think it's a waste of time for a natural, simply because of dramatically diminishing gains after newbie gains. For an AAS user it might be a very beneficial approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by embrance View Post
2)Do the first day or the second day(each has 6 basic exercises) for a week straight.thats 3 sessions with as much as possible weight,in order to force the body to adapt in that range of movement and activate the CNS along iwth the motor unit responsible for thes emovements,n a better way.So week #1 do three times day #1,weeks #2 three times day #2. etc.

Thoughts?
I think if you build slowly, don't go ultra heavy out of the gate, and allow some time for the body to adapt, the system could be useful for late intermediates and beyond. It's certainly worth a try.

The heavier the weight gets for me, the more warmup sets I need to perform, and the greater amount of my workout time is devoted to warmups. This makes it more difficult mentally and physically to squeeze in a lot of exercises. Younger kids could hang better, but I am nearing 44.

Because of the warmup demands, which are primarily for the CNS in my case, more frequent workouts make it easier to get in all the work I want.

With that said, I could hang with 5-6 exercise per day if the working sets were limited to singles, speed workout, or one all out set for reps.

This is sort of what I did:

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/pow...html#post74176
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mab54 View Post

I have never tried either (getting rdy to try something like the hepburn) but it is not fullbody it is a bodypart split. I also don't know to much about the subject so that is really all i know.
I personally don't consider Hepburn or Anderson style training to be splits in the modern context. These were advanced lifters with specific needs and had to break up workouts for various reasons. They took the fullbody workout and over time they evolved their training based on needs. These evolutionary steps are necessary for advanced trainees for several reasons.

A split is bodypart focused and bodypart driven. A fullbody, while it may separate lifts into AB divisions or the like, is not doing so to group bodyparts per se.

Most of these divisions are pragmatic. They may be necessary for joint health and recovery, because of the need for extended warmups, or because they found their body responded better to a certain frequency, etc.

I know we are splitting hairs here, but programs like Christy's or Hepburn's I do not consider splits even though they are not working the same lifts each workout.
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embrance View Post
1)From what I have read,the body can benefit from up to 5 times training the same muscles in the same week.Would I benefit in better motor unit recuritment if I did my heavy training in the monring,and then repeat the same workout in the evening with like 50-60% of the weight i used in the first session.Thoughts?
I would do this in the opposite order.

The CNS is sluggish in the morning. I would use the lighter session to fire the CNS up for the later session.
Then you have your metabolism and your CNS fired up all day and you can eat some good kcals in preparation for your evening session.
If you do short, quick bodyweight session throughout the day you'll keep your CNS pinging and prepped for the evening.

If you're doing 2 full body sessions a day, eat clean, you won't have to think about fat loss.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I personally don't consider Hepburn or Anderson style training to be splits in the modern context. These were advanced lifters with specific needs and had to break up workouts for various reasons. They took the fullbody workout and over time they evolved their training based on needs. These evolutionary steps are necessary for advanced trainees for several reasons.

A split is bodypart focused and bodypart driven. A fullbody, while it may separate lifts into AB divisions or the like, is not doing so to group bodyparts per se.

Most of these divisions are pragmatic. They may be necessary for joint health and recovery, because of the need for extended warmups, or because they found their body responded better to a certain frequency, etc.

I know we are splitting hairs here, but programs like Christy's or Hepburn's I do not consider splits even though they are not working the same lifts each workout.
Id agree with this. i am currently working upper/lowe/upper, but would consider it a fullbody as I dont concentrate on muscle groups at all, but I concentrate on planes of movement..

OP: I think it also depends on what type of training you are doing for this kind of workout to be effective. For example a lot of the olympic lifter train twice per day, BUT they dont do the concentric part of the lift as they tend to drop the weight once the lift has been completed. Doing the lowering phase of the lift as well makes the lift A LOT more taxing on the CNS and muscles.

just my 2p worth

Carl.
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Old 07-11-2011, 09:07 AM   #7
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This is why I like this forum, inteligent and constructive conversations without all the chest-thumping that goes on everywhere else.

I believe that as you progress as a lifter there needs to be an increase in volume. The problem is that as you become more tolerant of volume you also become stronger. So as you can use more volume, you can also use more weight, and that becomes very tough to recover from. Therefore, the routine needs to be split so you are using less exercises per session.
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Old 07-11-2011, 09:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I personally don't consider Hepburn or Anderson style training to be splits in the modern context. These were advanced lifters with specific needs and had to break up workouts for various reasons. They took the fullbody workout and over time they evolved their training based on needs. These evolutionary steps are necessary for advanced trainees for several reasons.

A split is bodypart focused and bodypart driven. A fullbody, while it may separate lifts into AB divisions or the like, is not doing so to group bodyparts per se.

Most of these divisions are pragmatic. They may be necessary for joint health and recovery, because of the need for extended warmups, or because they found their body responded better to a certain frequency, etc.

I know we are splitting hairs here, but programs like Christy's or Hepburn's I do not consider splits even though they are not working the same lifts each workout.
Sorry I don't think I was clear with that statement, when I was talking about the split I ment the eastern bloc bodybuilding not the hepburn. But the eastern bloc one is because of the way its set up
ex. monday morn
squat 7x3
Leg press 7x3

monday evn
front squat 3x10
calf raise 3x20
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:28 PM   #9
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I also tried my amlost max lift of 100kg of bench press for two weeks straightin a sets x 3 reps ramping style.Couldnt do more than 2 reps.Then today CNS rebound on this movement,and BAM!5 clean reps EASILY and at 5 REPS on all sets!!!
There is a connection between all this things,and i will post my theory later on as i advance more and more on this.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:30 PM   #10
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A few days late but liked the premise of this thread.

I'll start off with training 5 times a week. It is very much possible. Many olympic lifters will lift 6 times a week with several of those days being two-session days. And to pinpoint one lift in particular, the squat, it is for many, maxed out everyday if not 3-4 days a week. Now when I say max out I'm talking walk up to the bar and lift: no head banging, no ammonia sniffin, no pump up, and so extreme grinding reps. So in reality the lifter will work up to 1 rep somewhere in the low to mid 90% range of his/her max. Following that the lifter will drop weight and perform several sets of doubles.

The lifter will do the same for upper body presses. I however would recommend alternating between a few throughout the week, especially when the focus is overhead lifting -- overhead presses generally rely on smaller muscle groups which won't be able to take the same beating the post. chain and lower body can. So the lifter may switch between the push press, bench press and military press (example).

If jumping right into a 5 days a week, it would be wise to start off low. Squats for example, start off at a low weight to work up to - may be 225 it may be 315. These numbers are a minimum. So your goal for each day would to at least hit that number. If it feels light, go heavier, if your feeling sluggish just hit your minimum (225 or 315). After several weeks slowly increase that minimum. Every 4th or 5th week take a deload.

The other option would be to start off with only 3x a week and start off heavier, over the course of time add a lighter workout to one of your off days and slowly build that up... then add another workout to another off day, etc.
This is just the idea... much more reading will have to be done to fully understand the concept (matt perryman has writen on the topic, you may also take a look at some of the training logs and threads at glenn pendlays website).

As for doing mulitple workouts per day. You have a ton of options. Heavy AM session and light PM session (~50% of max or use much lighter lifts -- front squat instead of back squat). You can do heavy lower body, squat type stuff in the AM and some small assistance work with a heavy upper body session in the PM. Or you can do your big lifts (squat/dead and presses) in the AM and assistance work in the PM.

The key to adding additional training sessions is allowing your body to slowly adapt to them. To much at once you will burn out.

So... if your going to jump right into it, whether that means training the same stuff 5 times a week or training 2 times a day you will have to start of much lower in weight and volume than you think necessary. Over time slowly increase the weight/sets/reps.

If you want to start heavy you will have to start off doing it less frequently (3 days a week instead of 5) and slowly add in work.

What I've done in the past was start off at 3x a week full body. I'd slowly add in assistance work (dips, pull ups, good mornings, etc) or push the volume of the main lifts (squat/dead/presses). When I got to the point where I could handle the additional work, but was spending to much time in the gym I would add another training session later in the day and instead of doing assistance work in the first session with the big lifts, I did a quick 20-30 minute session at night for the assistance stuff.

Right now I'm using the Texas Method which has a high volume day, a recovery day, and an intensity day (monday, wednesday, friday). On tuesdays and thursdays I have been performing the lifts with just a barbell, 10-15 minute sessions. As time has gone by, I have slowly added a few lbs to those tuesday and thursday sessions. Doing so has added in recovery (gets blood flowing) and increases my work capacity (its more work, but is so easy it doesn't effect recovery). Over a longer period of time time as my work capacity increases, I would be able to easily squat or press 3x5,2x8,etc. with decent poundage without it screwing with my main days (volume, "recovery," intensity), and it would in fact aid the main lifts.

Some might not buy into this type of stuff for plenty of good reasons. It comes down to recovery and training ideals. I have two friends who would come into my schools gym and squat several doubles in the mid to high 300s. This is a nice feat in itself for the us weaker guys... but knowing those two guys not 24 hours before squatted in the high 400's... f'n awesome.

Last edited by Pull14; 07-15-2011 at 07:40 PM.
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