Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Muscle Building and Bodybuilding
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-28-2011, 08:29 PM   #1
dmaipa
Living in the Shadows
Max Brawn
Points: 12,684, Level: 73 Points: 12,684, Level: 73 Points: 12,684, Level: 73
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
dmaipa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New York..
Posts: 3,076
Training Type: Bodybuilding
Fav Supp: Food
Reputation: 48162
dmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machine
Default Overtraining Caused By Volume

I recently had a discussion today with someone. We shared our lifting styles and he follows a much lower volume route than I do. My body responds more to higher volume. After sharing my program, I was told that I was overtraining big time and that I should probably back off a little or maybe a lot.

What is everyone's take on overtraining? An excuse? I think it's something to watch out for but nothing to lose sleep over. I train 4 days a week but I pretty much make sure each session is a busting ass one. I train close to failure, sometime to failure on couple sets here and there.

For example today I did shoulders and Tris, After I finished my planned shoulder exercises I felt like I could do more so I did. I wanted to make sure I exhausted them. Is that wrong?

Does volume cause overtraining? If your diet is in check and you are fueling and replenishing your body with nutrients around your workouts and getting rest, I think it'll take a lot more to overtrain.

GO!
__________________
Connect with me more:

THE AIPA PROJECT | HAWAII FITNESS AND AWESOME KU LIFESTYLE BLOG

Youtube Channel: THE AIPA PROJECT

Twitter, Instagram, Facebook: @theaipaproject
dmaipa is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-28-2011, 08:38 PM   #2
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,961
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

Considering you're the pro BBer here, D, I'd be inclined to take your advice, not give it to you!
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 08:39 PM   #3
dmaipa
Living in the Shadows
Max Brawn
Points: 12,684, Level: 73 Points: 12,684, Level: 73 Points: 12,684, Level: 73
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
dmaipa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New York..
Posts: 3,076
Training Type: Bodybuilding
Fav Supp: Food
Reputation: 48162
dmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machine
Default

Im still learning tho. Ive done the low volume, moderate volume, high volume. I think when you put in frequency it puts a whole different twist on things though
__________________
Connect with me more:

THE AIPA PROJECT | HAWAII FITNESS AND AWESOME KU LIFESTYLE BLOG

Youtube Channel: THE AIPA PROJECT

Twitter, Instagram, Facebook: @theaipaproject
dmaipa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 09:07 PM   #4
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,885
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2581830
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

I did a 3 on 1 off for about 4-6 months when I was 19 and I was beat up pretty bad. With that said, some bodyparts of mine respond better to volume than others...primarily chest.

Was this overtraining? No. But my body was beat the heck up. I am not a fan of mixing volume with heavy weight for this reason. Some can take it, but I don't believe most can.

Overtraining the muscle is hard to do, but overtraining the joints, connective tissue and CNS is much easier to do. Different systems, different capabilities. Sometimes connective tissues and ligaments simply need time to strengthen, and volume probably won't speed that process up...only time and strength will.

Some of the young guys have had a tendency to proclaim to me..."I did volume and you, old man, don't have a clue..."

I do have a clue. I lived it. If someone believes volume is good for training longevity, all I can say is that I wish them well. Every 40+ lifter I talk to wishes they had performed less volume when young. And I have heard this too many times to count.

So my opinion...overtraining the muscle via volume is hard to do. But it is a slippery slope.

Lastly, I hesitate to make blanket statements. Volume to me is 30-40 sets per workout, but might mean 20 for some. Volume can be relative. Flex magazine routinely recommends workouts with 30-40 sets.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 06-28-2011 at 09:16 PM.
BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 09:08 PM   #5
bamazav
Bigger, Stronger, BAMA!
Max Brawn
Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97 Points: 26,424, Level: 97
Activity: 7% Activity: 7% Activity: 7%
 
bamazav's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 4,916
Training Exp: 5
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Squats
Fav Supp: Deadlifts
Reputation: 222686
bamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master memberbamazav is a master member
Default

To paraphrase someone else... Over training is a bunch of hoooeee. Most claiming "over training" simply do not want to do the work.

On a personal note, I would have a hard time seeing how you, D-man, could over train on a 4 day cycle, unless it was 4 consecutive days with excessively long sessions.

As Steve noted above, there are some problems that arise from high volume sessions. My observations have been that many who do a lot of volume see their form falter, yet gut it out. This is a prescription for injury.
__________________
David, Husband, Father, Pastor
(Yasen Miroslav Zavadil)

OBX Open August, 2014:
Squat 308 PR
Bench 176
Deadlift 402 PR
Total - 886 at 50 yrs 199.6 lbs

Shooting for a 900+ total for next meet. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified

Last edited by bamazav; 06-28-2011 at 09:10 PM.
bamazav is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2011, 09:37 PM   #6
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,961
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Overtraining the muscle is hard to do, but overtraining the joints, connective tissue and CNS is much easier to do. Different systems, different capabilities. Sometimes connective tissues and ligaments simply need time to strengthen, and volume probably won't speed that process up...only time and strength will.

So my opinion...overtraining the muscle via volume is hard to do. But it is a slippery slope.

Lastly, I hesitate to make blanket statements. Volume to me is 30-40 sets per workout, but might mean 20 for some. Volume can be relative. Flex magazine routinely recommends workouts with 30-40 sets.
I have the same propensity when it comes to training chest, as opposed to most other body parts too, Steve. And I agree with the points you make above.

Dan Macri and I were talking about the same thing (CNS development) as it related to overcoming sticking points in progression. He said it even simpler "Volume on a weight you're used to doesn't challenge your CNS - heavy ass weight does!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamazav View Post
To paraphrase someone else... Over training is a bunch of hoooeee. Most claiming "over training" simply do not want to do the work.

On a personal note, I would have a hard time seeing how you, D-man, could over train on a 4 day cycle, unless it was 4 consecutive days with excessively long sessions.

As Steve noted above, there are some problems that arise from high volume sessions. My observations have been that many who do a lot of volume see their form falter, yet gut it out. This is a prescription for injury.
I'll have to jump in here, Bama, and say I disagree with you somewhat.

In my experience:
*I have never used more than 20-22 working sets per routine - and when I was just starting out, it was even less.
*I trained no more than 4 days per week for the first year.
*I ate a lot of steak.
And I made great gains (160 lbs - 187 lbs in a little over 12 months).
Pretty simple, I would have thought.

Yet I see (well, read about) kids every day who are now in the same position I was 11 years ago, and they're not making gains. This is, I believe, because they are victims of this high-volume culture; doing 30-40 sets, 5 days a week is foolhardy for a beginner and it never would have been recommended by the trainers at my first gym... I guess I must have lucked out there.

My point is that, as Steve says, ligament and tendon damage is the cost of over training, but so is diminished muscle gain generally. The -ahem!- hard gainer is often simply training his mass away.

And high volume and frequency is going to rob people of results, even if they are lucky enough to not suffer an injury. For instance I know Rich Knapp uses ridiculous volume on his arms, which would put me in a cast inside a month! He can do it, and so can other people, but it's not going to build muscle on a beginner IMO. At least, not at optimum rates.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet

Last edited by Abaddon; 06-28-2011 at 09:52 PM.
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 07:37 AM   #7
Shadowschmadow
Totally Bitchin'
Max Brawn
Points: 2,307, Level: 29 Points: 2,307, Level: 29 Points: 2,307, Level: 29
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Shadowschmadow's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Soviet Maryland
Posts: 1,065
Training Exp: 8 years off and on
Training Type: SFW!
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Reputation: 11624
Shadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributorShadowschmadow is a dedicated contributor
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I did a 3 on 1 off for about 4-6 months when I was 19 and I was beat up pretty bad. With that said, some bodyparts of mine respond better to volume than others...primarily chest.

Was this overtraining? No. But my body was beat the heck up. I am not a fan of mixing volume with heavy weight for this reason. Some can take it, but I don't believe most can.

Overtraining the muscle is hard to do, but overtraining the joints, connective tissue and CNS is much easier to do. Different systems, different capabilities. Sometimes connective tissues and ligaments simply need time to strengthen, and volume probably won't speed that process up...only time and strength will.
Good post Steve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamazav View Post
To paraphrase someone else... Over training is a bunch of hoooeee. Most claiming "over training" simply do not want to do the work.
I don't think its that most don't want to put in their due, but I believe that in most cases you can point out a particular reason as to why they may believe they are experiencing over-training symptoms, when in fact they are not. Simple fact of the matter; OTS includes far more than extended muscle soreness and/or strains, and I believe that these strains are often misinterpreted.

To say that over-training is more or less a myth would be an ignorant statement. Steve hit the nail on the head by stating that it is most certainly achievable, but harder than most would believe.

For the TS: Over-training can be achieved through workout volume for sure, but real OTS is mostly seen in those who do a good bit of volume with weights, loads of cardio and/or do not eat to match their activity level.

For those who are uneducated on the matter, its easy to misinterpret DOMS as OTS. But if you know the symptoms, and you're really doing enough to begin experiencing them, you can normally catch it early and put an end to it by backing off.

For your personal example, if you're recovering from your workouts appropriately, then you should be fine. When you begin noticing your fatigue/soreness, inconsistent strength, etc. from the prior training day carrying over to several other sessions, you need to back off or take a break. That doesn't mean its over-training, but if you keep hammering away you could stirr up some OTS or easily injure yourself.
__________________
The Greatest Respect You Can Earn is Self Respect.

Last edited by Shadowschmadow; 06-29-2011 at 07:45 AM.
Shadowschmadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 08:04 AM   #8
TitanCT
Manlet of Malice
Max Brawn
Points: 10,355, Level: 67 Points: 10,355, Level: 67 Points: 10,355, Level: 67
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: CT
Posts: 1,422
Reputation: 110787
TitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master memberTitanCT is a master member
Default

theres no such thing as over training, only under eating? =0 )
TitanCT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 08:13 AM   #9
Aurik
SFHW = Win
Max Brawn
Points: 5,197, Level: 46 Points: 5,197, Level: 46 Points: 5,197, Level: 46
Activity: 4% Activity: 4% Activity: 4%
 
Aurik's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,574
Training Exp: 1-2
Training Type: General Fitness
Fav Exercise: Kettlebells, for now
Fav Supp: XTend
Reputation: 19362
Aurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributorAurik is a dedicated contributor
Default

Short and simple answer: If you are getting bigger and stronger and sufficiently recovered by your next workout, you're not overtraining. If you're getting weaker or your joints start giving you fits, it's time to back off a bit.
__________________
"Generally people can't squat because they're lacking in the 'lower ab' area. As in they need to grow a set." - LtL
"No one ever got big or strong by lifting lightweights" - Carl1174
Follow my log here: Aurik's Back to Basics log
Valentin Konstantin Platz
Aurik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 09:09 AM   #10
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,885
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2581830
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

My personal view on large bodyparts is about 9-12 sets per in the context of a split. Sometimes up to 15. If you look at a split or fullbody this volume will be about the same.

Once you go beyond this volume it starts bloating workouts, pushing them generally more than 4 days per week.

My "young gun" comment I made above...I should have better explained. I have had debates with folks over volume, and after pages of debates found out that my definition of moderate volume was their definition of high volume. So we believe the amount of maximal volume to be the same, but we hadn't got down to brass tacks, so we thought we were miles apart.

9-12 sets per large bodypart plus 3-6 sets for minor bodyparts is around 99-132 sets per week. This is if you exclude lower back and obliques, but do hit forearms and traps.

This would be high volume for 4 days per week. I hope by explaining this I hope you can see my "upper volume" is probably the same as your definition of high volume.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
caused, overtraining, volume


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Overtraining? CNS? miked96 Powerlifting & Strength Training 45 03-02-2012 10:54 AM
Soldier's high volume training, high volume fat log Soldier Training Logs 196 10-23-2011 03:25 PM
You are overtraining... dmaipa General Board 13 11-13-2010 09:54 AM
Overtraining 101 Iron Gladiator General Board 0 12-19-2009 08:07 AM
Different Types of Muscle Soreness Caused By Weight Training Dork McSchlorp General Board 0 10-07-2009 09:40 AM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.