Muscle and Brawn Forums

Muscle and Brawn Forums (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/index.php)
-   Muscle Building and Bodybuilding (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Recruitment of the Lats & Chest (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5360)

xKyle10 02-03-2011 10:08 AM

Recruitment of the Lats & Chest
 
Found this nifty little gem on 3DMJ:

3DMUSCLEJOURNEY - Q & A January 2011

Written by Eric Helms:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Helms
January 2011

This month's Q&A is a not so dramatic reenactment of a conversation I had with a bodybuilder concerning lat and chest development. It was a back and forth conversation so this article's format will reflect that.

Rob: I'm wondering if you had any good workouts or suggestions for better chest activation and lat activation. I feel like my delts tend to take over on chest workouts and my lats don't seem to want to grow from what I can tell.

Eric: Rob, anytime you are looking to improve the activation of a certain bodypart, always begin by studying what its muscle-actions are. Focus on the biomechanical functions of the pecs and lats; the main action of the pecs is flexion of the humerus (bringing the arms across the front of the body), and the main function of the lats are adduction and extension of the shoulder (essentially reverse front and side raises).

http://www.3dmusclejourney.com/resou...=1294207191247

Keeping this in mind, I think some key movements for a delt dominant presser would be to move to using dumbbells for chest pressing since they allow more arm movement across the chest, and also to do some mild decline and incline work since they can help take the shoulders out of the equation a little more.

As far as the lats, including a pull-over motion is very important and often overlooked in most programs. A Hammer Strength or Nautilus pull over machine are the best options and really allow you take the synergists out of the equation. If you don't have access to one of those you can make do with straight arm pushdowns or decline DB pull-overs. I would prioritize those lifts, and then focus on progressively loading them.

Rob: Do you think I should do the pullovers or pulldowns at the end like I've been doing or should I do them first to pre-exhaust the muscles? I know some people aren't big on pre-exhaustion, but I figure it might be a direction to go since I usually leave those until the end. Also, the same question for chest, would doing pec deck and flyes before presses be more beneficial or less than the opposite order?

Eric: Rob, I'm not big on pre-exhaustion. The idea that pre-fatiguing a muscle group with an isolation exercise will then result in it being preferentially utilized during a subsequent compound movement has been proven to be incorrect in the research. In fact, pre-exhaustion results in greater recruitment of the non-fatigued synergists because they have to compensate for the pre-exhausted muscle group.

That being said, I am big on putting lagging bodyparts first before anything else. It has been shown that the first movement performed in an exercise program gains more strength compared to exercises done later in the workout. Logically, you could make an argument that the same would be true for hypertrophy. For this reason, I'd suggest putting a pull-over movement first, simply because you'll be able to put your full energy into an exercise that prioritizes your lats and minimizes synergistic dominance.

Another thing for back work, try incorporating the shoulder extension action of the lats (reverse front raise) while doing rowing and pulldown movements. During pulldown movements most people pull in a straight line, only utilizing the shoulder adduction (reverse lateral raise) action of the lat and neglecting extension. But if you pull in a slight arc as you come down, you may notice a greater contraction in the lats. It is a subtle change, but is noticeable when done right.

http://www.3dmusclejourney.com/resou...=1294207347846

For rowing movements, utilize the same principle, don't just pull straight back in a line. Keep your elbows at your sides instead letting them flare and pull back and down in an arc towards your waist. If you pull straight back and flare your elbows, the posterior deltoids and mid back do most of the work. The lats act primarily on the shoulder, not the scapula, and most people focus more on scapular retraction and not enough on shoulder extension. This results in a well developed upper mid back and poor lattisimus dorsi development.

http://www.3dmusclejourney.com/resou...=1294207447499

Lastly, think of pulling from the elbows not the hands. Use straps, or a thumbless grip and try not to "death-grip" the handle. This can help the biceps take less of a role during the movement.

You might be thinking, "If I should begin my back workout with pull-overs since they mimic the primary muscle action of the lats, why not start my chest workout with flyes for the same reason?". Although a logical assumption, I actually think starting with a dumbbell press first is best. It's a good balance between allowing you to use the heaviest load and also focusing on the action of the pecs. The reason I suggest doing pull-overs first but not flyes, is that a rowing or pulldown motion has more synergists than a chest press. On a chest press, it's just front delts, pecs and triceps. On a rowing motion your lats, posterior delts, trapezius, rhomboids, erectors, biceps and forearms all come into play. So, it's a lot more common to get synergist dominance while doing a row or a pulldown than it is with chest press.

While doing a dumbbell press, it's nearly impossible not to recruit your pecs as prime movers. But, there are some things you can do to help make sure you are and to avoid delt take-over. Flare your elbows, and make a conscious effort to not just press up, but also to press the dumbbells together and across the front of the body. I recommend a tucked, "power-style bench press" while doing the barbell bench because it is safer on the shoulder. But, unlike a barbell dumbbells allow each shoulder to track individually, so it is safer to allow flaring of the elbows and results in greater pec recruitment.

I advise a slight incline (less than most fixed benches give) or a slight decline, (whichever you feel your pecs working more on) not because I am trying to isolate "upper" or "lower" pecs but because they are better for overall pectoral recruitment.

http://www.3dmusclejourney.com/resou...=1294207604379

One thing is for sure, you can't make it to the top of natural bodybuilding these days without an impressive chest and lat spread!


great read, learn something new everyday!

BendtheBar 02-03-2011 11:44 AM

I start all my back lifts by pulling the shoulder(s) back first.

Mentally, I say...pull back shoulders, then elbows. This helps me to avoid some sloppiness, which tends to hit my biceps too hard.

andys_trim 02-03-2011 11:56 AM

On the image that shows what not to do on DB Rows, is exactly what I do :(

5kgLifter 02-03-2011 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andys_trim (Post 112929)
On the image that shows what not to do on DB Rows, is exactly what I do :(

Me too :( Time to change it, very next session :rockon:

I'd come across something similar before but there's more additional info in the piece above.

andys_trim 02-03-2011 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5kgLifter (Post 112931)
Me too :( Time to change it, very next session :rockon:

I'd come across something similar before but there's more additional info in the piece above.

Back day is tomorrow, hopefully I will feel some difference with the new form. I'm going to have to use lighter weight.

bamazav 02-03-2011 12:56 PM

On the DB rows, and others for that matter, think about pushing the elbows to the roof. The point about taking the biceps out of the pull is spot on. Don't over grip and then focus on moving the elbows toward the roof. First time you will realize how little you have been working that back.

BigFiveFive 02-03-2011 01:00 PM

Those guys know what they're talking about, Ill be training with them this summer.

Good post.

5kgLifter 02-03-2011 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamazav (Post 112958)
On the DB rows, and others for that matter, think about pushing the elbows to the roof. The point about taking the biceps out of the pull is spot on. Don't over grip and then focus on moving the elbows toward the roof. First time you will realize how little you have been working that back.

In that case, I think I best go lighter, otherwise I'm gonna trigger some really bad TOS related pain, especially if the other method has been working them very "little". Thanks for highlighting that.

BendtheBar 02-03-2011 01:33 PM

I hate to sound like an uber chest pounder, but I do rows with 215 pounds. The dumbbells are so long there's only one place I can row them to. And it's definitely not by the hips.

Even if I was using light weight I wouldn't be rowing to the hips. That isn't a natural movement for me, and feels awkward on the shoulders.

DocColossus 02-03-2011 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 112977)
I hate to sound like an uber chest pounder, but I do rows with 215 pounds. The dumbbells are so long there's only one place I can row them to. And it's definitely not by the hips.

Even if I was using light weight I wouldn't be rowing to the hips. That isn't a natural movement for me, and feels awkward on the shoulders.

I find as long as you allow for a full stretch at the bottom of the row, the lats get incorporated just fine... It's those half-rep guys that are the problem...


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.