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-   -   Too much readie readie not enough liftie liftie? (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5329)

Trevor Ross 01-29-2011 01:47 PM

Too much readie readie not enough liftie liftie?
 
I was at a book store that deals in vintage books (yes I collect books), and I got a hold of a Bodybuilding book from the early '80s. I skimmed through a few pages, and in a nutshell if a rookie lifter wanted to get pointed in the right direction there it was. I forget the title and author of the book, but it did get me thinking is there too much information out there (with the rise of the internet) to the point of over-saturation? Myself, I listened to the big and strong guy and low and behold I got big and strong. I think with the rise of science in Bodybuilding (the pencil neck with "10 arms with the electrodes stuffed up his ass telling us what the best way is and the ghost writers in the muscle porn mags) the pursuit/sport has taken huge steps backward. The rabbit was always in the hat, it's just now you have to sift through a metric ton of shit to find it. There are so many different views/concepts that I can see (and have seen) new lifters being pulled in so many different directions that they don't gain anything, then they give up thinking everyone must be on steroids that make big gains. What are your thoughts?

BendtheBar 01-29-2011 02:40 PM

Waaaay too much complication. Everyone has to give their unique slant and program.

Simplicity, the basics and hard work don't sell too many magazines.

The roid magazines also have lost touch completely with natural lifting, which even further muddies the waters. The Internet is actually a tool helping folks to re-connect with effective, natural methods of training.

But, with the good comes the bad. There is also an entire new mountain of crap to weed through. Some good, most over-complicated and unique for the sake of uniqueness.

Trevor Ross 01-29-2011 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 111752)

The Internet is actually a tool helping folks to re-connect with effective, natural methods of training.

Can't argue with that, without the internet I wouldn't of gotten to learn about the old-timers.

glwanabe 01-29-2011 03:24 PM

I like my workouts and my women the same way.

Hot
Sweaty
Simple



Wait.

BendtheBar 01-29-2011 03:31 PM

I am all about simplicity, basics, progression and persistence. Anyone who trains this way will make great progress regardless of the program...

Trevor Ross 01-29-2011 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 111766)
I am all about simplicity, basics, progression and persistence. Anyone who trains this way will make great progress regardless of the program...

That is very true, and plus it's more fun that way.

Kyle Aaron 01-29-2011 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 111752)
Simplicity, the basics and hard work don't sell too many magazines.

I don't think that's true. Magazines preaching just that existed from the 1930s through to the 1970s. There was always something new to write, because people are individuals. What if someone has a herniated disc and can't deadlift? What if they're training for basketball? What about a guy in a wheelchair? How about football?

And so on and so forth. And these articles were written, and the magazines did sell. The thing is, they had a different readership.

The old model of magazine sales was to get a loyal readership who'd buy your magazine for years on end. The new model is to expect people to read your stuff for about two years then never look at it again. That's why you see the same articles published every 18-30 months in Muscle & Fiction. The same people aren't reading it so they won't notice it's a repeat.

It's just an extension of what's happened with gyms. Gyms used to have a core membership of people who'd be there for years once they signed up. Now the people are there for a 12 or 24 month contract, and most of them don't go regularly anyway.

It's a decision every business must make in the end. Do you go for a small to moderate number of steady customers, or a large number of occasional customers? Will you be the neighbourhood corner Italian restaurant, or the McDs? And the same decision applies to forums. bb.com is McDs, this place is the corner joint.

The bodybuilding magazines have gone the McDs way, as have most gyms. But it ain't necessarily so, and many businesses are still like the neighbourhood corner Italian place. It's just that few or no bb magazines are.

Carl1174 01-29-2011 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 111752)
Waaaay too much complication. Everyone has to give their unique slant and program.

Simplicity, the basics and hard work don't sell too many magazines.

The roid magazines also have lost touch completely with natural lifting, which even further muddies the waters. The Internet is actually a tool helping folks to re-connect with effective, natural methods of training.

But, with the good comes the bad. There is also an entire new mountain of crap to weed through. Some good, most over-complicated and unique for the sake of uniqueness.

this is true, i have learnt more from the internet than from anywhere else, but most of it has come (or been directed through) from forums, now there is definitely a lot of shit to wade through on some of them, but i have been lucky not to get caught up in those and only been on the 'good' boards :)

Carl.

BendtheBar 01-29-2011 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron (Post 111792)
I don't think that's true.

I agree about the old and new model.

My point is more about the industry in general. Everyone, from e-book peddlers to countless websites, are trying to sell complexity as the key to "re-igniting" gains. Or complexity of diet.

The industry is so clouded by what is needed for steroid training that they don't have a clue that a natural who has made good gains isn't going to re-ignite much of anything. (Muscle gains, not talking strength)

If I tell someone that once they have made good gains during their first 2 years, assuming they have actually trained correctly and made these good gains, that the well is fast running dry and the best thing they can do is stay the course and remain persistent, most won't buy what I'm saying.

I know this firsthand, because I work in the natural industry and talk with elite natural bodybuilders each day. When I talk natural limits, or about how muscle confusion to re-ignite muscle gains isn't going to help them much, they either walk away, laugh or mock me. Very few listen.

I think realistically very few want to buy my message. This is the simplicity I am referring to.

Basics - I just don't think there are many who want to work hard using basics. We now live in a society where people are use to solutions for every need. When they don't want to work hard, they seek an easier, more pleasant solution.

In general the amount of people who are actually willing to listen to my gospel of hard work with basics isn't what it was during the 1930s to 1960s. Most people don't care about my message because it's hard work. There are a thousand gurus on every corner, and they will move on until they find a solution that feeds them the product they wish to buy.

So I do believe my message of simplicity and basics and realistic natural training approaches wouldn't sell many magazines. Out fast food culture wants neither hard work or simplicity. Simplicity is seen as dinosaur age, when viewed by the technology-driven modern mind that sees complexity as improvement and evolution. Hard work is an outdated concept.

So here I sit with my concept. Most seasoned, hard-working naturals don't want to buy it because it limits their muscle growth and we live in a feel-good era that doesn't want limits. And on the other side we have those that don't want to work hard, so they will ignore my message and look for something else to buy.

All in all, I feel my message won't sell many magazines.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one...

Quote:

That's why you see the same articles published every 18-30 months in Muscle & Fiction. The same people aren't reading it so they won't notice it's a repeat.
Try every 2 months. I get them because of my daughter's school subscriptions and it's the same type of cover headlines month in and month out. "Get huge fast"...

Kyle Aaron 01-29-2011 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 111812)
The industry is so clouded by what is needed for steroid training that they don't have a clue that a natural who has made good gains isn't going to re-ignite much of anything. (Muscle gains, not talking strength)

I agree that the industry is clouded by steroid issues. But I think it's also clouded by something else: Newbie Gains. Because newbie gains come from any routine at all, and because most people never go beyond newbie gains, a lot of dodgy crap is taken to be good.

As I've said before, the vast majority of people in gyms are not engaged in progressive resistance training. They have no set workout routine, or change it every 2-8 weeks, or if they have a few favourite exercises they don't up the weights, reps and sets for weeks or months.

Now, obviously what makes our bodies change is increasing the specific stress on them - progressing the resistance on a particular exercise. As a complete newbie, doing anything at all is more than you were doing, so you get results on all sorts of wacky routines. Of course, they'll stop giving you results after 6-12 weeks and something better is needed - but the vast majority of gym-goers will have changed their routine or stopped progressing the resistance after 2-4 weeks anyway.

As the guy giving them the routines, I have even physically written in the progressions for people so they could just tick them off. Yet I still find them doing the same thing again and again. The other night there was a guy I'd given a routine to, he was squatting shallow. I got him squatting deep. Three months ago I'd started him on 40kg squats, and given him a progression - each of 36 workouts written out with weights, sets and reps - that should have seen him squatting 100kg by now. Even with stalls and a stack of missed sessions at least 75kg.

He was squatting 50kg. I could see this was much too light for him. He told me he was scared of the heavier weights. So we just put 5kg on and had him do 1-3 reps. All the way up to 75kg, which he did easily. He could have done singles with 85-90kg, but I stopped him there because you can only push a nervous guy so far before he cracks. I had him then do 60kg 3x5, which he did smoothly and easily. But he'd been screwing around with 40-50kg for three months.

And this is the ballsy guy who is at least actually squatting.

Anyway, the point is that people get the newbie gains, and usually stop there. They don't progress beyond that. And since literally any routine at all will give the newbie gains, people get the impression that there are thousands and thousands of routines that work.

Anyone with more than 6 months' experience of progressive resistance training is going to just toss Muscle & Fiction aside. But anyone who's only ever experienced newbie gains won't know, and will lap it up.

You're speaking from the perspective of natural and steroid-enhanced bodybuilders who've done progressive resistance training for some years. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who sees that most people in gyms are not engaged in progressive resistance training at all.

Quote:

Try every 2 months. I get them because of my daughter's school subscriptions and it's the same type of cover headlines month in and month out. "Get huge fast"...
I was referring less to the repeat of general themes, and more the repeat of entire articles word-for-word. That happens every 18-30 months, from what I recall back in the 1990s.


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