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Old 01-21-2011, 03:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
What are your thoughts on the following base structures:

Structure 1

Monday - Squats
Wednesday - Deadlifts
Friday - Squats

Structure 1

(Week 1)
Monday - Squats
Wednesday - Deadlifts
Friday - Squats

(Week 2)
Monday - Deadlifts
Wednesday - Squats
Friday - Deadlifts

I guess the questions become:

1) Do you, or should you deadlift more than once per week?
2) Is squatting about every 5 days enough on this style of lifting?


My choice would be to squat twice a week, and deadlift once a week...so structure A. I think a beginner to early intermediate could handle deadlifting twice a week, but in the end I would rather see a great squat frequency.

With that said, I like both structures enough to think they are viable.
I have done a split like this once before. It will wear you out fast. Just selection A will work. If training MWF you could consider Squats MW and Deads on Friday. That set up would give two days rest before you return to squats.

Personally, I squat MWF. I either lighten up on DL day or I do a different variation of the squat to hit the muscles a little differently. Since I do not do these variations often, the weights are naturally lighter.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:45 PM   #12
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A beginner can handle squatting AND deadlifting in every single session. Remember, for a starting weight for deadlift we're only talking 135lbs. Unless you are under 100lbs or infirm that's not going to really smash you the way it will later at 225 or 315lbs.

As I wrote above, I frequently have my clients squat and deadlift in the same session, and twice a week. They do alright, and increase the weights each session or week. Again, once they hit SQ100% and DL125% or so, it'll be harder for them to SQ+DL in each session, and anyway they'll be well-practiced at the movements and ready for more.

However, if you for some reason will or can do only squat or deadlift in a session, I would have more squatting than deadlifting - only because SQ has a lot of carryover to DL, but DL much less carryover to SQ. Their DL will get stronger with lots of squatting, but their squat won't get much stronger with lots of deadlifting.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
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A beginner can handle squatting AND deadlifting in every single session. Remember, for a starting weight for deadlift we're only talking 135lbs. Unless you are under 100lbs or infirm that's not going to really smash you the way it will later at 225 or 315lbs.

As I wrote above, I frequently have my clients squat and deadlift in the same session, and twice a week. They do alright, and increase the weights each session or week. Again, once they hit SQ100% and DL125% or so, it'll be harder for them to SQ+DL in each session, and anyway they'll be well-practiced at the movements and ready for more.

However, if you for some reason will or can do only squat or deadlift in a session, I would have more squatting than deadlifting - only because SQ has a lot of carryover to DL, but DL much less carryover to SQ. Their DL will get stronger with lots of squatting, but their squat won't get much stronger with lots of deadlifting.
Interesting points. I particularly like your last paragraph. I do see much more carry over with squats.
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Squat 308 315
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Shooting for a 1000+ total for next meet, spring/summer 2015. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:03 PM   #14
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I never deadlifted as a beginner so I have no personal perspective on how taxing it feels.

I think this is a great insight:

Quote:
Again, once they hit SQ100% and DL125% or so, it'll be harder for them to SQ+DL in each session, and anyway they'll be well-practiced at the movements and ready for more.
...and fits right in with the Reeve's style approach.

Anyone have any issues with having two stages to this approach, one pre and one post Kyle's numbers?
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I never deadlifted as a beginner so I have no personal perspective on how taxing it feels.

I think this is a great insight:



...and fits right in with the Reeve's style approach.

Anyone have any issues with having two stages to this approach, one pre and one post Kyle's numbers?
I like Kyles approach and if anyone starts to complain that they don't understand it you can just blame it on his funny accent.
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Meet Maxes: Gym Maxes:
Squat 308 315
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Deadlift 408 375

Shooting for a 1000+ total for next meet, spring/summer 2015. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:26 PM   #16
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I like Kyles approach and if anyone starts to complain that they don't understand it you can just blame it on his funny accent.
Good point.

Scapegoats are always good....

Besides, deadlifts and squats every day just sound right.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Good point.

Scapegoats are always good....

Besides, deadlifts and squats every day just sound right.
Sounds right and like punishment. Good punishment.
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(Yasen Miroslav Zavadil)

Meet Maxes: Gym Maxes:
Squat 308 315
Bench 176 185 This WILL change!
Deadlift 408 375

Shooting for a 1000+ total for next meet, spring/summer 2015. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I never deadlifted as a beginner so I have no personal perspective on how taxing it feels.

I think this is a great insight:



...and fits right in with the Reeve's style approach.

Anyone have any issues with having two stages to this approach, one pre and one post Kyle's numbers?
I like this approach for a rank beginner.

Vince Gironda used to have newbies train daily for several weeks. It is the same concept. The important point is to adjust the workout when the bench mark is made.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:06 PM   #19
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As with all benchmarks, it's just a guideline. For example, the other night I found a young woman doing bench press on a swiss ball in a power rack, she had the stated goal of "get strong and stack on muscle." So I ran her through the obvious exercises. At 68kg she can already squat 40kg - could probably do 60kg - and deadlift 80kg, so she's pretty much made the benchmarks but... she has terrible form. Were I training her regularly, I'd want to see good form on SQ/OHP/DL before adding any other exercises.

Then there's Dave, who I've mentioned before in "beginner results". At 66kg or so he did SQ75kg OHP37.5kg DL110kg, but... he's shown no sign of plateauing, and he's not complaining about a lack of variety, so why not milk it some longer?

And we can easily imagine some people would need more variety earlier on.

Have to consider the individual along with the benchmarks. They seem good to me so far, I may change my mind later.

I would observe that those lifts - SQ100% BW, OHP50% and DL125% - are about as much as people can achieve if they have a poor routine (eg bench press on a swiss ball) and if their rest and nutrition aren't very good. You're unlikely to lift more than that doing the usual Bro Routine of bench press, curls and crunches, living on McDs and staying up all night popping e-tabs or playing World of Warcraft. Going beyond those lifts requires proper training, and more or less decent rest and nutrition.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:37 PM   #20
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Right now I think our main goal is just to develop sound templates for various needs, so that we can use them as community reference point when someone asks for a reference point.

So with that stated, I think general guidelines might be a good idea, but caveats are in order.

We would, of course, assist based on specific needs.

Right now the hardest thing for me is that the forum is growing and some of the same questions are getting asked regarding workouts. If we can get some templates with generalized guidelines as references, and we know where they are located, we can dial in a lifter from thank point based on their form, needs, progress, etc.

If that makes sense?
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