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Old 01-12-2011, 10:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianna Bol View Post

There's no real way of telling.

This is not a true statement. There are several ways to judge a person at what they are claiming to have been able to achieve.

I don't trust naturals at their word and I don't trust the IFBB bodybuilders.

I can't really argue with you on this point. I find that as an industry, the whole of barbell sports have done a very bad job of self policing. As a result, things have gotten out of control.

On the first point.

There is the aspect of natural limits. If a person has exceeded these limits by more than about 10lbs, then it is cause to look at them with some skepticsim.

There is also the point of the rate of dimiishing gains. How long did it take said person to achieve their size. Casey Butt has written about this topic as well.

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Basically, if a person has A, exceeded natural limits, and B, done so faster than should be expected by natural gains, then C, chances are they have used some sort of pharmacology to attain these results.

5 years of serious hard work should have most people in the 90 percentile of their natural limit. Thats if you do everything perfectly. How often does that happen?


The whole of barbell sports is it's own worst enemy on this topic. As Steve said, if you talk about natural limits, the torches and pitchfork crowd will come for your head in the dark of night.

A few week ago I posted about Arnolds routine and one particular comment in that was made.

Quote:
Brett
September 4, 2010 | 1:47 am
What you have to be aware of is Arnold didn’t have a full time job like we do. He trained in the morning and again in the afternoon 6 days a week with 1 day of rest each week. If he had a job that consumed 8 – 9 hours of his day, he would not have had the energy left over for this kind of workout regime. I have to admit it is a full on workout program. I do honestly believe if he trained his entire body over 3 or even 4 days he would’ve grown a lot more in size over the years, like many pro body builders of today, who train their entire body over 5 or 6 days. Arnold was doing this workout program for years and his body was used to it. Maybe he felt at the time that if he stretched his entire body workout over more days of the week he would’ve gone backwards with his gains. Who knows? I honestly put it down to knowledge of the sport then as compared to now. It’s like anything. Only time and learning from the past will advance and improve on any system. Pro body builders of today who train their entire bodies over 5 to 6 days are overwhelmingly huge. Arnold has admitted increased knowledge and changes in today’s training principles have proven results in the size of competitors these days. Back in the 70′s pro body builders were massive, but they had nothing on the body builders of today who are way bigger, and have much more definition.

When I first started training when I was 15, I trained my entire body over 2 days, 6 days a week, just like Arnold. I thought it’d work for me. I did that for 2 years and thought I got pretty big. But I was constantly sore and tight and was never training a fresh muscle. Fatigue got the better of me and I gave it up for 12 months. I then went back a year later and trained my body over 3 days, twice a week with a day’s rest at the end of the week. I made even more gains a lot quicker than I had previously. But it did get to a point again eventually after 6 months where I was always sore and wasn’t recovering in time, but didn’t want to take days off to recuperate, because for some wierd reason I thought I’d lose gains. It was stupid I know. So I gave up again. Then went back again 6 months later and trained over a 4 day period instead with even better results. Workout days had an even more reduced number of exercises, which meant I could smash two body parts per day with max intensity like never before and receive even better gains. The body parts I was training every time were nice and fresh. I felt strong & fresh, not constantly sore & fatigued like I did previously when trying to cram so much into one workout. I’m 32 now and still train with this 4 day workout program. I usually have a day rest after each 4 days. So it’s more like a 5 day full body workout. I have to admit, I am not confident in training my whole body over 6 or 7 days to this day. I personally believe I’ll go backwards in gains doing that as I’d be resting trained muscles for too long. But it’d probably be even more benefitial to me to tell you the truth. I think this is what Arnie believed back in the day with his 2 day full body workout. He thought it worked for him, and he was not confident in stretching out his program over more days in the week even though I believe it would’ve been profoundly benefitial for him. I think his muscles would’ve had such little time to recuperate and it limited his growth gains while training so ballistically. I think there’s only 3 body parts that you can successfully get away with training so frequently at such intensity and still make gains on, and they’re the calves, abs and biceps. Arnie’s program was advanced for it’s time and was betetr than programs of the 50′s. Programs of the 90′s were better than Arnie’s program of the 60′s & 70′s. Programs of today are better than they were 10 years ago at a pro level, and in the future I’m sure they’ll improve again. Sorry for the length of my comment, but I felt I had to write this in such detail to get my point across. But make what you want of it. Feedback is welcomed.

That comment is a perfect example of how ignorant people are about weight training. The industry is not truthful about what is going on, how can they be? The lie's lead to this type of thought process as to how things work. People are stupid and ignorant, and willingly dismiss the truth when presented to them.

For the industry to be truthful about natural limits, they have to be upfront about how the sport is filled with usage of AAS. The IFBB pro's are for the most part all on at some point during the year, to achieve the size they walk on stage at. The industry by and large, is pulling one of the largest bait and switch schemes in the world right now.

This is not natural bodybuilding, but it's the epitome of pro's at the top level.




The industry right now is no better than snake oil salesmen of the old west.
I'm not judging anybody for their personal decisions as to how they choose to achieve their goals. What I do want to happen is for people to be honest about how they achieved their goals.

Until we can openly, and honestly talk about this we will be stuck arguing amongst ourselves, and having honest people called liers, by other ignorant individuals. It is our own fault that this is happening.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:07 AM   #12
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here's a short deleted scene from Bigger, Stronger, Faster where Jay Cutler says steroids are involved with bodybuilding, that he has the edge, and thats why he is number 1..It's funny how he says that..but when Christian Boeving, a fitness model, who was also with MuscleTech mentions that he takes steroids on the same documentary and then he is fired. I respect Jay for saying this because other IFBB pros would just go around the subject.

Society plays a large role in all of this, just have to wonder where did this all change?

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Old 01-12-2011, 11:11 AM   #13
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You guy's all know me and what I look like, I'm no big bad ass BBer. But at work at least 10 times a day I get called one of 2 things, Roid Rage Rob or Baby Oil Bob. No joke every day at least 10 times a day. It's all good, their ignorant, they have no glue and wonder why they are out of shape as they sit there and eat their donuts and pudding.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:29 AM   #14
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You guys know my opinion, as unpoplular as it seems to be I am convinced that all pro athletes (in real sports: golf, tennis, and bowling don't count) who do well for extended careers juice. And, it bothers me not one iota. As long as every one of Barry Bond's homers left the field in fair territory they count. As long as all of Kazmaier's deadlifts went from the floor to locked knees, they count. There's nothing unfair about it. But, at some point if you are paid to play a sport you will face that choice.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:30 AM   #15
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For "NATURAL" there is a lot of Ideas what Natural is.
  1. Theres Natural for life- NOT EVEN SUPS LIKE CREATINE OR PROTEIN POWDER
  2. NATURAL FOR LIFE - Never took anything on any fed band substance list, life and sups a open book.
  3. Natural - 7 years drug free on there feds band list, life and sups a open book.
  4. Clean for a few months pre show (what I call NPC natural)

Most of the Natural Monsters are NPC naturals.

When it come to Naturals the WNBF/INBF is were you find more of the Naturals for life and Naturals (7 year). INBF a few sneak threw but eventually get caught. Unless the never win there class.

Bodybuilding is like any sport. The human drive to be a winner draws them to hold back small items that help them.

Heck even I have small pre stage tricks I don't tell. Its all in the learning curve.


Sorry back ton track. With all the new science behind sups now days we find more dedicated naturals pushing the natural limits.
BUT there is ridicules claims of natural. If you remember up until the day Colman won his 1st Olympian he claimed natural. Most Monsters claiming natural ARE what I call "NPC Natural".

If some one competing natural and is cheeting and getting away with it just shows they don't have what it takes to play by the rules and win.

Its the same as cheeting at cards ,football, baseball or any other sport or activity. I'm not talking cheeting with roids I meen ANY rule. Head butting, close lining, pine pitch, corking your bat, these rules. If you use admit it and compete in a user fed. Compair apple to apples. You use ? compete and be compared with other that do. Have some balls.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:39 AM   #16
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BTW I don't care if you juice or not thats your choice. Just for god sake if you do, man up and have the balls to admit it.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:56 AM   #17
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You know what irritates me too... the idea that exercise is for weight loss. I get exhausted with people asking me "How much weight do you want to lose?" and their moronic gaze when I explain that I'd actually like to gain some weight. I also hate getting advice from pople who look like underwear models. One such metro-fag that I work with made it a point to letme know that I would "see more results" from swiss ball situps and ab wheel "core" work when he saw me doing weighted decline situps. I said I just wanted a bigger deadlift and I'm not sure if he really even knows what deadlifting is. Don't get me wrong, I know it takes hard work for that too and he was trying to be helpful, he just lacks the expertise in my training goals to give me useful advice.
I personally would simply take it as a compliment if some lay-person accuse me of juicing.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:23 PM   #18
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And then there's the people that get you wondering. I believe thats what this is about, for example, I show people pictures of Philip Ricardo Jr, hands down the best "natural" in the game and current Mr. Natural Olympia, and people don't believe it for a second that he's natural, and honestly, I have a hard time as well. But if he passed the tests, then it must be true....right?

Wrong.



My guy Phil right there, and I am by no means calling this dude out, nor am I trying to sound arrogant by comparing him and using him in this. But this is the BEST Natural bodybuilder that has walked the earth, even better than John Hansen...WHO USED ANABOLIC STEROIDS...but is "natural"

Now, let's look at Skippy, dude is not natural after claiming for a very long time to in fact BE NATURAL, and overseeing his UNNATURAL amount of mass, what is the real difference between these two men? Skip has some unnatural mass, Phil has some unnatural vascularity.



Let's dig deeper, Philip Ricardo Jr competed in NPC non-tested competitions for 6 years all while not claiming to use any performance enhancing drugs, but yet not saying he was "natural" ....fishy? ...I think so.

Now brings me to my next subject, Dr. Layne Norton, love this guy, smart as hell, I truly believe he is 100% natural, but he very well may have some skeletons in the closet.



Sure, Florida is a nice place to live, sunny, hot bishes, beach, ocean, blah, blah. BUT its also the home to the LARGEST anti-aging supplementation and distribution companies in the US. So how does Layne pack on 12lbs of lean muscle in 2 years after already being 27 years old and a lean stage weight of 189 for the last 4 years? All right after moving to florida, maybe something in the florida water? Maybe better gym equipment? ...fishy? ...I think so.

Regardless of all this, and I am by no means accusing anyone of anything in this post, there's something out there boys and girls, the "naturals" aren't so natural, and while there are some who honestly are natural, some of the guys were idolizing are indeed not natural. There's plenty of shit they cannot test for and many ways to beat the system, whos to say they've got the secret answer?
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I went through the same thing in 1987. My own mentor pulled me aside and asked if I was taking anything.
Just got this today on facebook from a "buddy"...I wasn't lying when I say everyday...

"you know roids make your dick small right?...i'm just putting that out there...i don't care how big you think you are...i'll whip your ass kid...lol...congrats brother"
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:28 PM   #20
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^ Great post above 55. Solid work.
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