Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Muscle Building and Bodybuilding
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-07-2010, 10:16 AM   #1
flow
Senior Member
Brawn
Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 142
Reputation: 1010
flow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good posts
Default H/L/M training

Hello Muscle and Brawn Forum and the members,

I already introduced myself in the welcome section:

I am 29 years old and training for a decade.I started with 186cm and 68 kg and bumped myself up to 98,5kg but also with 23%BF.
I cutted down this year,but because of university and infrequent training i lost strength and mass.
Currently I am at 82kg and 16'%BF and goin for a recomp.
I like reading bout training so much, thats why my library includes much literature. (kraemer,pavel,rippetoe,siff,bompa etc.) thats why i am so pleased with the articles of casey butt which lead me to suscribe to this forum.

My current programm is folowing:

Training 2xthe week, 1x cardio

In the 2 sessions i train whole body with following exercises:

squat
bench
row (wide grip pronated on pulley)
shoulder dumbbell press
lat pulldwon to chest
abs
hyperextensions.

The exercises are constant. my periodization for the UPPER BODY is via the reps/volume in the heavy/light/medium template:
heavy:3x3-5reps 4min rest
light:2x15 reps 1 min rest
medium 3x8-10 2 min rest

I neglected legs over the years,thats why linear programming still works.
I squat 3x8-10 2x the week.

The sets are in straight sets/across fashion. So the same weight for all sets and chosen this way, that the last rep of the last set is not to failure but one rep short of it. (no rep left in the tank)
I once tried to rep myself out in eacht set-even if not goin to failure the stress is enormous-i didnīt believed it,but after the first exercise there was no energy left for the other exercises and i crushed down after 3 weeks. i never believed that but thats how it is.

diet is 2000ckals on off days, 3000kcals on training days.(recomp approach) On weekends i donīt count the kcals.

My questions:

- i also searched casey butt articles about overlapping muscle groups (for example: bench/shoulder press) any recommondations regarding that?

-I think of rotating the exercises in the next cylces so starting with shoulder press the next cycle.

-The cycle should last about 6 weeks, then i want to intensify which means that i will not to sets across but ramp up to one heavy set. this will apply to the 3īs day the 10īs day and the 15īs day.

-in which way you think will fit the deload best? i thought of deloading after the intensification phase. Here the caveat is, how long the deload should be (transitions phase are generally 2-4 weeks) and in which way i should do it because when you reduce too much the weight, you will eventually loose the gains.

Opinions are greatly welcome, especially by those who follow a similar periodization plan.

Yours,
floW

Last edited by flow; 12-07-2010 at 10:19 AM.
flow is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-07-2010, 10:40 AM   #2
glwanabe
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,268
Reputation: 150539
glwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master member
Default

One of my favorite topics.

I'm at work and don't have time to really get into this right now. Later today I can post up some stuff.
glwanabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 10:42 AM   #3
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,944
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flow View Post
My questions:

- i also searched casey butt articles about overlapping muscle groups (for example: bench/shoulder press) any recommondations regarding that?

-I think of rotating the exercises in the next cylces so starting with shoulder press the next cycle.

-The cycle should last about 6 weeks, then i want to intensify which means that i will not to sets across but ramp up to one heavy set. this will apply to the 3īs day the 10īs day and the 15īs day.

-in which way you think will fit the deload best? i thought of deloading after the intensification phase. Here the caveat is, how long the deload should be (transitions phase are generally 2-4 weeks) and in which way i should do it because when you reduce too much the weight, you will eventually loose the gains.

Opinions are greatly welcome, especially by those who follow a similar periodization plan.

Yours,
floW
Hi Flow,

Training twice a week you certainly could work overlapping muscles. I do so myself right now. The best thing to do is start with the larger muscle group, or more potent compound lift. I would use bench press or dips before an overhead press. I personally also like to insert my rows in between bench press and overhead press to allow some time for my triceps to rest.

You could also stagger the HLM for these exercises so you are not hitting both "heavy" on the same day. Maybe start with heavy bench and light shoulders, and rotate from there.

You could also work bench one day and pressing the next. But this would leave you hitting chest and shoulders only once a week, and it might fall on the side of undertraining.

As far as deloads, I would limit them to 1-2 weeks. You could try 2 weeks, and maybe cut back the time if you feel that is too long of a rest.

I personally advice deloads in one of two ways:

1) Use the same weight but drop the sets by 40%.

2) Use the same amount of sets but drop the weight by 40%.

These are only ideas, and are no means rules to be followed to the letter. I don't think you would lose any strength dropping weigh by 40%. But then again, if you did a 2 week deload maybe you could do your first week dropping the sets by 40%, and the second week dropping the weight by 40%.

I'm sure others will have some good opinions as well...
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 11:54 AM   #4
flow
Senior Member
Brawn
Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 142
Reputation: 1010
flow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
One of my favorite topics.

I'm at work and don't have time to really get into this right now. Later today I can post up some stuff.
great, i am excited regarding your input!
flow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 12:01 PM   #5
flow
Senior Member
Brawn
Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 142
Reputation: 1010
flow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Hi Flow,

Training twice a week you certainly could work overlapping muscles. I do so myself right now. The best thing to do is start with the larger muscle group, or more potent compound lift. I would use bench press or dips before an overhead press. I personally also like to insert my rows in between bench press and overhead press to allow some time for my triceps to rest.

You could also stagger the HLM for these exercises so you are not hitting both "heavy" on the same day. Maybe start with heavy bench and light shoulders, and rotate from there.

You could also work bench one day and pressing the next. But this would leave you hitting chest and shoulders only once a week, and it might fall on the side of undertraining.

As far as deloads, I would limit them to 1-2 weeks. You could try 2 weeks, and maybe cut back the time if you feel that is too long of a rest.

I personally advice deloads in one of two ways:

1) Use the same weight but drop the sets by 40%.

2) Use the same amount of sets but drop the weight by 40%.

These are only ideas, and are no means rules to be followed to the letter. I don't think you would lose any strength dropping weigh by 40%. But then again, if you did a 2 week deload maybe you could do your first week dropping the sets by 40%, and the second week dropping the weight by 40%.

I'm sure others will have some good opinions as well...
thank you very much for your fast reply.
you look indeed strong but friendly too

I also has the same points in my mind.

-heavy bench heavy shoulders/light bench light shoulders
-heavy bench light shoulders /heavy shoulders light bench

-the only thing here is, how about the medium days? in this case regarding the rotation the medium day must be applied for both exercises on the same day.

I also think that the second option could work fine too,cause neverthess on pressing u use less weight than on bench-even if shoulders are trained hard.

What about other exercises like row and pulldown? Here the weight difference is not THAT big regarding these two exercises.

Thank you also for the input regarding the deload.
Does your input applies to all days regarding the deload?(5/10/15?)(its the "60% rule" isn it?)

So the idea of 6 weeks accumulation and 6 weeks intensification is sound?

I also once thought if its useful to flip the heavy day to a medium day during the deload. So M L M etc.
Experience on this? Or just overcomplicated?

Last edited by flow; 12-07-2010 at 12:05 PM.
flow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 12:03 PM   #6
glwanabe
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,268
Reputation: 150539
glwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flow View Post
great, i am excited regarding your input!
This is a great article, that you may like to read.

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/pow...on-thread.html
glwanabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 02:56 PM   #7
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,944
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flow View Post
thank you very much for your fast reply.
you look indeed strong but friendly too

I also has the same points in my mind.

-heavy bench heavy shoulders/light bench light shoulders
-heavy bench light shoulders /heavy shoulders light bench

-the only thing here is, how about the medium days? in this case regarding the rotation the medium day must be applied for both exercises on the same day.
I would run it something like this:

Week 1
Workout A - Heavy Chest Light Shoulders
Workout B - Light Chest Medium Shoulders

Week 2
Workout A - Medium Chest Heavy Shoulders
...and so on in the same pattern...

Or:

Week 1
Workout A - Heavy Chest Light Shoulders
Workout B - Light Chest Heavy Shoulders

Week 2
Workout A - Medium Chest Medium Shoulders
...and so on in the same pattern...

Or you could just throw out medium days completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flow View Post
What about other exercises like row and pulldown? Here the weight difference is not THAT big regarding these two exercises.
I would cycle rep schemes and weight:

Heavy - 5 reps
Medium - 10 reps
Light - 15 reps

Maybe something like:

Heavy rows, light pulldowns
Light Rows, Heavy Pulldowns
Medium - medium


Quote:
Originally Posted by flow View Post
Thank you also for the input regarding the deload.
Does your input applies to all days regarding the deload?(5/10/15?)(its the "60% rule" isn it?)
This 60% style would apply to all workouts - HLM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flow View Post
So the idea of 6 weeks accumulation and 6 weeks intensification is sound?

I also once thought if its useful to flip the heavy day to a medium day during the deload. So M L M etc.
Experience on this? Or just overcomplicated?
Well, I wouldn't say it's overcomplicating things. You are thinking through your training in an intelligent manner. Most lifters simply go "buffet" style adding things they like for no reason. you are doing the opposite of that.

You are building a workout based on a sound, thought out system.

You can really take deloads as they come. If you don't feel weak, tired, or low energy, then you could do something like a MLM.

Deloads really come down to personal experience, so while we could make up a structure, it's best to try thing and adjust intuitively and based on experience. For some deloading too long is counterproductive.

I will say that the heavier the weight, the more beneficial 2 week deloads will be. When the weight is still relatively light, your body, joints etc won't need them as much. This is a very general statement though, as rapid increases in linear progression can be very taxing for certain lifts like squats and bench.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2010, 03:17 PM   #8
glwanabe
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,268
Reputation: 150539
glwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I would run it something like this:

Week 1
Workout A - Heavy Chest Light Shoulders
Workout B - Light Chest Medium Shoulders

Week 2
Workout A - Medium Chest Heavy Shoulders
...and so on in the same pattern...

Or:

Week 1
Workout A - Heavy Chest Light Shoulders
Workout B - Light Chest Heavy Shoulders

Week 2
Workout A - Medium Chest Medium Shoulders
...and so on in the same pattern...

Or you could just throw out medium days completely.



I would cycle rep schemes and weight:

Heavy - 5 reps
Medium - 10 reps
Light - 15 reps

Maybe something like:

Heavy rows, light pulldowns
Light Rows, Heavy Pulldowns
Medium - medium




This 60% style would apply to all workouts - HLM.




Well, I wouldn't say it's overcomplicating things. You are thinking through your training in an intelligent manner. Most lifters simply go "buffet" style adding things they like for no reason. you are doing the opposite of that.

You are building a workout based on a sound, thought out system.

You can really take deloads as they come. If you don't feel weak, tired, or low energy, then you could do something like a MLM.

Deloads really come down to personal experience, so while we could make up a structure, it's best to try thing and adjust intuitively and based on experience. For some deloading too long is counterproductive.

I will say that the heavier the weight, the more beneficial 2 week deloads will be. When the weight is still relatively light, your body, joints etc won't need them as much. This is a very general statement though, as rapid increases in linear progression can be very taxing for certain lifts like squats and bench.
Steve has it pretty much covered. I like the bolded part as that is what I was thinking as well.

You'll know when you need to pull back. I generally go pretty hard until I really need a break. Sometimes I may push a little to hard to my own detriment.

I think your thinking about all of this in the right way, but the best way to find out whats right for you is to write out a plan, stick to it for awhile, and after you have worked it, see where you need to make changes no matter what direction you need to go in.

Trust yourself, and have fun doing your workouts. If you have been reading Caseys work as a basis to work from your already starting with a sound process to build from.
glwanabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2010, 10:44 AM   #9
flow
Senior Member
Brawn
Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 142
Reputation: 1010
flow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
This is a great article, that you may like to read.
thx-of course christy is part of my library too

i like his approach and its typicall mc robert like.
the only thing i miss is planning for the more intermediate athlete.
thats why i like caseys articles that much-its practical programming for Bodybuilding.
flow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2010, 10:51 AM   #10
flow
Senior Member
Brawn
Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26 Points: 1,940, Level: 26
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 142
Reputation: 1010
flow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good postsflow has made some good posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I would run it something like this:

Week 1
Workout A - Heavy Chest Light Shoulders
Workout B - Light Chest Medium Shoulders

Week 2
Workout A - Medium Chest Heavy Shoulders
...and so on in the same pattern...

Or:

Week 1
Workout A - Heavy Chest Light Shoulders
Workout B - Light Chest Heavy Shoulders

Week 2
Workout A - Medium Chest Medium Shoulders
...and so on in the same pattern...

Or you could just throw out medium days completely.



I would cycle rep schemes and weight:

Heavy - 5 reps
Medium - 10 reps
Light - 15 reps

Maybe something like:

Heavy rows, light pulldowns
Light Rows, Heavy Pulldowns
Medium - medium




This 60% style would apply to all workouts - HLM.




Well, I wouldn't say it's overcomplicating things. You are thinking through your training in an intelligent manner. Most lifters simply go "buffet" style adding things they like for no reason. you are doing the opposite of that.

You are building a workout based on a sound, thought out system.

You can really take deloads as they come. If you don't feel weak, tired, or low energy, then you could do something like a MLM.

Deloads really come down to personal experience, so while we could make up a structure, it's best to try thing and adjust intuitively and based on experience. For some deloading too long is counterproductive.

I will say that the heavier the weight, the more beneficial 2 week deloads will be. When the weight is still relatively light, your body, joints etc won't need them as much. This is a very general statement though, as rapid increases in linear progression can be very taxing for certain lifts like squats and bench.
thank you for your long and good post.

I think that M days could be benefical out of 2 reasons:

1.Its the sweet spot parameter for hypertrophy
2.If the H day is really draining it could be neccessary that after the L day a H day would be still too heavy and soon. thats why the M day is followed before the H day and after the L day.


I will try first to do bench and shoulders on the same day with the same rep count.
If its doensīt work, i will turn to the bench H/shoulders L etc option which is really sound.

Regarding the time and next cylce after the deload:
Do you think I can immediately jump into the working weights again or is there a need of ramping again to my working sets over 2-3 weeks?(like 5x5 bill starr)
flow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
h or l or m, training


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bodybuilding Training: 10 Secrets to Training for Building Massive Muscles Dork McSchlorp General Board 7 04-06-2014 04:48 PM
Feedback on switching from fullbody training to push/pull/leg training dooj Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 4 04-27-2011 06:43 PM
10 years training: this I give to you. Advice from my training experience. DocColossus Training Logs 64 05-04-2010 08:42 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.