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NTO 10-27-2010 01:25 PM

New to bulking
 
Ok. At the risk of being eaten alive by the beasts here...

How do you bulk? Is this just another way of saying "go ahead and get fat?" I'm shoveling down between 3500-4000 super-clean cals / day which is a lot for me ( I think ). Since I'm pretty much a skinny guy it feels like my gut is taking the hit. What is considered normal? Are there guidelines/rules/suggestions on best practices besides "Eat! Eat! Eat!"?

andys_trim 10-27-2010 01:37 PM

I am posting a secction from an article Writen by Coach Poliquin...i wish i would have found this years ago! LOL!

These are the reasons why i dont bulk-up anymore. I learned this the hard way LOL! years ago i used to get up to 230 lbs in the offseason and after several attemps to put extra muscle i realized that this nonsense approcah dont work. The body can only grow muscle at a pre-deteminated rate and by overfeeding the only tissue filling the t-shirts will be fat

here we go (from coach poliquin's article)

ANTI-BULKING FACT #1. Bulking-up diet programs won’t produce any more muscle growth than ingesting an ideal amount of nutrients. Sorry, but it’s simply not possible to force additional muscle growth by overfeeding.

ANTI-BULKING FACT #2. Bulking up develops insulin resistance, which makes it harder in the long run to gain muscle. What happens when you bulk up is that carbohydrates will go preferentially to fat stores, not to muscle tissue.

ANTI-BULKING FACT #3. Bulking up will make it harder for you to get leaner because insulin resistance is hard to reverse. The fatter you get, the harder it becomes to get lean. Female bodybuilders learn this fact quickly, as it is considerably harder for women to reach the low body-fat levels required for competition.

ANTI-BULKING FACT #4. The fatter you get, the more aromatase enzyme your body will produce. In the extreme, getting fat could be considered a form of self-castration, as your own testosterone will be converted into the female hormone estrogen and you will suffer many unwanted side effects. If you’re a man and you enjoy wearing a bra, go right ahead and get fatter.

ANTI-BULKING FACT #5. Getting fatter will ramp down the effectiveness of your thyroid hormone production – not a good thing, because thyroid production is essential for fat loss. The fatter your abdominal wall becomes, the less conversion there will be of T4 to T3, the metabolically active form of thyroid.

ANTI-BULKING FACT #6. The lower your percentage of body fat, the better your body becomes at nutrient partitioning. This means individuals with low body fat are more effective at storing the ingested nutrients in the muscle (as muscle tissue or glycogen) or in the liver (as glycogen) and less effective at storing nutrients as body fat. To put it in simpler terms, leaner individuals can eat more nutrients without gaining fat.

ANTI-BULKING FACT #7. The idea that “a calorie is a calorie” is a bunch of bunk. Calories from sweet potatoes are great for building muscle; calories from beer are not. For that matter, getting fat increases the risk of dying from any cause, even terrorist attacks. I’m serious – you’re a bigger target and you can’t get out of danger as fast.
__________________
This is from Francisco's log. He is a natural pro bodybuilder. ^^^^

I personally just got done with a 10 month bulk and I added a lot of muscle. But losing the fat gets harder every time. I shot for over 4000 calories for a while then I just ate whatever I saw. I probably have about 25 pounds of fat to lose to go along with HOPEFULLY 10 pounds of muscle. Take from it what you will, but if you want to bulk I recommend a clean bulk but keep the calories pretty high and bust it in the gym. Make sure you have good amounts of carbs and protein post workout. Also, don't skimp on the healthy fats.

Hope that helps.

NTO 10-27-2010 02:02 PM

#5 hits home as I already have a faulty, underproductive, thyroid I take meds for.

So the theory that if you want to be 200 lbs. eat like you ARE 200 lbs. is an "out of fashion" concept? What's a safe over-feeding/calorie surplus ratio? Is there really one? Is it needed to grow?

andys_trim 10-27-2010 02:10 PM

When I was bulking I lived by "If you want to be a monster, you have to eat like a monster" but some people(not necessarily on here) would disagree. I don't think there is one. Basically, if you are going to bulk to put on muscle, you will put on fat. It is inevitable and is part of the game if that is the route you choose. The key is if you bulk and gain muscle, you have to be able to lose the weight again to show/see the improvement. Next summer, I plan on eating a little above my maintenance calorie levels (the amount required to stay at your current weight) and see if I make some gains that way instead of eating like a monster and gaining 25 pounds of fat even though it was effective. In this sport, there are different and unorthodox ways to do everything. If bulking and losing weight works for you, great, then do that. If you have trouble losing weight I would stay away from it and find an alternate route.

If you are looking to bulk I would say 4000 calories would be a good number. But it depends on your body. Age, metabolism, weight, and workouts all play in to the picture. But eating tons of chicken and broccoli WILL NOT help you put on muscle.

NTO 10-27-2010 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andys_trim (Post 89074)
...if you are going to bulk to put on muscle, you will put on fat. It is inevitable and is part of the game...

I think this is what I was looking to hear someone say. You will gain fat, and hopefully muscle, with bulking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andys_trim (Post 89074)
...I plan on eating a little above my maintenance calorie levels...

This makes good sense to me. I do beleive you have to eat above maintenance for gains. It's just the "how much?" that eludes me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andys_trim (Post 89074)
...If you have trouble losing weight I would stay away from it and find an alternate route.

Have no trouble here. Go to bed @ 170-172 wake up @ 163-166 like clockwork. How the hell do you lose weight in your sleep???

Thanks for the pointers.

andys_trim 10-27-2010 06:07 PM

I don't think you have to eat a ton over maintenance, but the exact number eludes me also. I went all out during my cut. When you sleep, your body is in "fat loss mode" for lack of better terminology. Not exactly sure why your numbers move so much, you aren't losing and gaining 10 pounds everyday. It may be a trick of the scale. Speaking of which, the scale is a good tool but I would rely more on what the mirror says and how your body feels. You have to listen and respond to it and you will make the gains you are looking for.

BendtheBar 10-27-2010 07:58 PM

I would aim for about 3500 clean cals and watch the scale. I'm not one so much for bulking as I am for eating enough to gain weight. It's a lot of give and take. You need to watch the scale, and adjust. I would aim for a pound a month, or 2 if you have never made substantial gains before.

As far as myth number one above, it's not completely a myth. The body does not flip from fat burning mode to fat storing mode the second you eat one extra calorie. So in overfeeding windows of 2 weeks several studies have revealed that the body does in fact produce more muscle. After two weeks the body - during a bulk - becomes more efficient at storing fat. So I like the possibility of taking a week of two "off" and eating slightly lower cals during this time.

A study analyzing untrained (non-lifting) sumo wrestlers revealed that they have as much lean body mass as high level natural bodybuilders. This statement tends to freak people out, but it's a reality none the less.

Getting back on track, I am not telling you to eat like a pig and become a sumo wrestler. But you do need to find that sweet spot where you know you are eating enough, and the scale and mirror reveal that.

An average rank beginner can can about 15 pounds of muscle during their first year of hard training, with the first 3 months being the best.

The older you get, the cleaner you should bulk. The more muscle you have, the cleaner you should bulk. Young guys who are rank beginners can eat like buzzsaws and generally not pay the price.

rippednmichigan 10-27-2010 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTO (Post 89065)
Ok. At the risk of being eaten alive by the beasts here...

How do you bulk? Is this just another way of saying "go ahead and get fat?" I'm shoveling down between 3500-4000 super-clean cals / day which is a lot for me ( I think ). Since I'm pretty much a skinny guy it feels like my gut is taking the hit. What is considered normal? Are there guidelines/rules/suggestions on best practices besides "Eat! Eat! Eat!"?

Welcome NTO! and no worries here bro, you won't be attacked here and that kind of behavior and mentality is not welcome. We do joke but are serious about helping each other.

BTB go away!! Your on vacation.

NTO 10-28-2010 06:44 AM

Solid advice BTB. Thanks for spelling it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BendtheBar (Post 89131)
...watch the scale, and adjust.

I know that the scale can be tricky. I had gotten advice before that you should weigh yourself on the same day every week, first thing in the morning, after you visit the restroom and before you eat anything. Does this sound right for getting consistent/honest, or accurate reading(s)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rippednmichigan (Post 89133)
...you won't be attacked here and that kind of behavior and mentality is not welcome.

Thanks ripped! Nice to know that I can ask real questions and get real answers from folks that are in the grind. I've seen other boards where the testosterone is WAY outta control!

BendtheBar 10-28-2010 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTO (Post 89160)
Solid advice BTB. Thanks for spelling it out.



I know that the scale can be tricky. I had gotten advice before that you should weigh yourself on the same day every week, first thing in the morning, after you visit the restroom and before you eat anything. Does this sound right for getting consistent/honest, or accurate reading(s)?



Thanks ripped! Nice to know that I can ask real questions and get real answers from folks that are in the grind. I've seen other boards where the testosterone is WAY outta control!

I usually weigh myself after going to the bathroom each morning. It definitely provides me with the most consistent numbers.

Above I mentioned 3500 calories. This could easily be 3000, or even 2700 depending on your metabolism and age.

The first week of eating a bit more you might experience a seemingly rapid weight gain. For me, when I eat more my body seems to hold more water, quite possibly as a response to the extra digestion requirements.

Some guys get worried after their first week of bulking because of this gain, as it is appearing that they are going to balloon up to 300 in to time.

I wanted to at least mention this. Not sure if everyone goes through this, but some do.


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