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Old 02-22-2010, 12:26 PM   #21
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Playing devil's advocate, why do so many bodybuilders recommend using clean bulk diet and eating only a few hundred calories above maintenance?
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:23 AM   #22
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Playing devil's advocate, why do so many bodybuilders recommend using clean bulk diet and eating only a few hundred calories above maintenance?
Good question. I'm just taking a stab at it, but I think the whole idea is to s-l-o-w-l-y gain weight. If weight gain is slow enough, then perhaps less of the gain will be fat. Is it possible to do? Maybe, if your metabolism is just right. Another thought just came to mind. Perhaps there exists an elitist mindset, whereby the top bb'ers advocate the "clean bulk," because it is nearly impossible. It then makes what they do SEEM that much harder, and may also discourage up and coming competitors. Believe me, if there's a possible conspiracy theory, I'll sniff it out.

Not to beat a dead horse, but this whole diet thing got me to thinking... I've posted up a couple of items in this thread that would make it look like I have no regard for a clean diet. Wrong. All kidding about Big Macs and Mc Gangbangs aside, a gaining diet should be healthy and well balanced. The Big Macs should not be feared though. They should be incorporated occasionally (almost frequently) to help put a person over the caloric edge. I would NEVER condone a steady diet of fast food. However, if your body is craving a burger, then you probably need one. Feed it...If you're bulking, of course.
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Old 02-23-2010, 01:23 AM   #23
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Playing devil's advocate, why do so many bodybuilders recommend using clean bulk diet and eating only a few hundred calories above maintenance?
Generally its because of health reasons, all the sodium and saturated fats aren't good for you. Last thing they need is to recommend double cheese burgers or burritos and someone has a heart attack....

Also most BB'ers believe that if you slowly gain muscle while putting on little fat that after cutting you should have more muscle left over than dirty bulking and working hard to cut off much more unwanted fat(in the process loosing muscle)

Once someone gets big.... their talk gets big too
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Old 02-23-2010, 07:34 AM   #24
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yes but the thing is that the recomendations come from guys who have a time line to cut their weight for comp. if you did a dirty bulk and packed on tons of size for lets say 2 years. if you're not in a comp you could take the next 2 to clean it up a little and slowly widdle the fat away thus saving most of your muscle you worked so hard for. goals and timeline would play a huge factor in a persons current diet plans.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:19 AM   #25
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yes but the thing is that the recomendations come from guys who have a time line to cut their weight for comp. if you did a dirty bulk and packed on tons of size for lets say 2 years. if you're not in a comp you could take the next 2 to clean it up a little and slowly widdle the fat away thus saving most of your muscle you worked so hard for. goals and timeline would play a huge factor in a persons current diet plans.
true, but who wants to diet for 2yrs, plus your average guy wants it like yesterday. i think if your going to spend some time on it it would be beneficial to pull a Dave Tate and blast the **** for a short time.think the cycle that steve has talked about
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:21 AM   #26
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Playing devil's advocate, why do so many bodybuilders recommend using clean bulk diet and eating only a few hundred calories above maintenance?
Because any fat they gain, they will inevitably have to lose. It is a hell of a lot easier, to eat clean and try and build optimally 5 pounds of muscle and 1 pound of fat in 6 months then 10 pounds of muscle and 5 pounds of fat in 3 months because in ratio 5:1 vs 5:2, the lesser the fat that needs to be taken off the easier the definition process begins. Bodybuilding used to be about muscularity,definition symmetry and size, not just SIZE how it is blow up today. Bigger is not necessarily better.

Look at Arnold in Pumping Iron, he didn't have a fat gut, and get grossly out of shape like Lee priest would. Arnold felt, the closer you are to competition habits, the lifestyle, the diet, being constantly in shape, the easier it is to get ready and more importantly be ready for that competition.

Bodybuilder's of the past IMO were more athletic, more defined and developed.

To give a personal example. Right now I weight 265lbs. About 3 other times in my life I have weighed this much, and I look best this time around. I don't even look 265 right now, I look like how I used to at 255, WHY? Its not really because I just put on more muscle and more fat, which I have but I still put on some fat growing to 265 my second time around. The answer is because I have been lifting a lot longer this time around and my muscular shape and definition is just a lot more mature and fine tuned then it used to be. I am also a lot stronger then I was at this weight.

To quote Dorian Yates "Me, myself, I'm not playing anyone else's game.I'm just playing my game. This year I am not necessary coming in bigger but I feel I i'm coming in a lot better; better shape, with better definition, better symmetry, and more finish. So all they guys are playing my old game.I'm playing my new game."
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:23 AM   #27
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The dirty-clean issue is a very complex one.

Far too many times underweight lifters are told to eat slightly above maintenance. Being that they are 30 pounds below average out the gate, I don't recommend this at all. Underweight lifters should do whatever it takes to get up to a normalized weight, and take assessment of their situation at that time.

Another facet of this discussion is the fact that many trainees are 18 with high metabolisms. They may need to eat 4000 calories (or more) just to get 500 above maintenance. This can be fairly challenging, and dirty foods can help. For trainees like this, a diet of 25% unhealthy food isn't a bad thing. They are eating primarily clean, yet adding in a large piece of cheesecake and a small bag of Doritos each day.

And to be frank, I often see lifters telling these guys not to eat anything bad, and then the same lifters go and binge eat and drink (beer) - or they pig out once or twice a week. 25% is 25%.

And lastly, one of the problems with this discussion is the fact that at least 90% of lifters following diets have no clue what their maintenance levels are. They just follow a PCF ratio or eating plan, eat mostly healthy, and many times undereat.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:33 AM   #28
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Atm I'm 165 pounds at 5'7 and I'm 17 years old.I still have top 4 abs in good light.I've gained about 15 pounds in the last 5 weeks without any fat gain really but I think it is coming to an end now.How much weight should I aim to put on a week do ye think?Gaining weight isn't a problem my metabolism isn't fast.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:43 AM   #29
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Atm I'm 165 pounds at 5'7 and I'm 17 years old.I still have top 4 abs in good light.I've gained about 15 pounds in the last 5 weeks without any fat gain really but I think it is coming to an end now.How much weight should I aim to put on a week do ye think?Gaining weight isn't a problem my metabolism isn't fast.
I think 170lbs. Would be optimum for you height. You would look massive. I think 165lbs at 10% looks bigger than 190lbs. at 20%. Just my opinion.
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:24 PM   #30
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Atm I'm 165 pounds at 5'7 and I'm 17 years old.I still have top 4 abs in good light.I've gained about 15 pounds in the last 5 weeks without any fat gain really but I think it is coming to an end now.How much weight should I aim to put on a week do ye think?Gaining weight isn't a problem my metabolism isn't fast.
That's really good progress. Generally lifters in their first year of hard training can gain 15 to 18 pounds of muscle. If you were underweight out of the gate, that number can be higher.

At this point, I would aim for about a pound of weight gain per month. Anything less than that and you may be limiting muscle growth. Because you have made such good progress, I would keep doing what you're doing. If you start to gain more than 3 pounds a month, I would probably back off the calories a bit. Muscle gains should start to slow up a bit for you, but with that said, you could still add another solid 10 pounds (or more) this year if all goes well.

I would love to hear about your approach, since most young guys struggle to achieve what you have achieved.

Great job!
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