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Old 01-09-2011, 12:13 AM   #51
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It's been great reading this thread - props to glwanabe for bumping it.

Here's 2 unconventional things I do, and have always done, with good results:

1. 12 reps is the pinnacle, NOT the constant.
If I can perform sets 1 and 2 and hit 12 reps each time, weight has GOTTA go up. But this doesn't mean 12 is my goal for every exercise and every set. If I hit 6 reps, next time I will load the same weight and try for 8. If I don't make 8, it means I'm going too heavy and need to drop the weight. If I DO make 8 reps, next time the goal will be 10. Follow this to 12 reps, increase the weight, and start over.

2. Non-linear progression in weight loading
When I feel I am not progressing in an exercise using the above method, I mix it up. For instance: I have been using a 75kg load for my 1st set of lateral pulldowns, and hitting the 8-10 rep range for some time now. SO today I'm loading it to 85 - 10kgs heavier. I might make only 4-5 good reps, and that's just fine. Coz next week, I will load it to 80kgs, and will not be surprised if I hit 8-10 good reps.
By mixing it up in this way, I should make an increase of 5kgs (11lbs) in 2 weeks.
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Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:19 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BigFiveFive View Post
And after reading these posts I still WTFLULZ, not because of the posts by any means, because it all is true (Steve good posts) From my experiences as an "advice giver" or "person to look up to" I see these kids coming to me with no drive or will power to achieve anything they want, in or out of the weightroom.
The no drive part is really they cornerstone of failure. I have had several conversations on this topic recently and remarked that I can generally tell who will succeed in fail after 2 minutes of talking with them. I wish it weren't so, but you can generally see a pattern.

Rep ranges aside, this thread really boils things down to hard work. Deisel Weasel from this forum doesn't train anything like a bodybuilder, yet has a body that could easily compete in the natural bodybuilding realm.



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Almost 3 years ago I was that kid that read, read, read, read, read, and oh yeah, read. And I had a group of buddies that where the Joe Schmucks smashing ****ing weights and didnt give a damn about macros, form, sets, or reps, it was SFW ALL DAY and progressive increases in those weights lifted.

But I was different than the kids reading all day now and "trying" to piece it together...I did piece it together, and i lifted with my joe schmuck buddies and SFW with them and when stuff started getting "sloppy" or "stupid" (lifting wise) I applied all the science I read about, and I have the motivation and drive to take what i learned from forums like this one and use it to better myself.

It seems all I get is the Joe Schmucks that dont know the science and are stuck, or its the readers that are too lazy to progress like the joe schmucks and SFW. Either way, anytime i look at it, its the same thing, people are lazy. They apply themselves in no way to making themselves or what they do better.

I wish I had all the answers in one breath, but I don't, and personally believe it can't be answered, people have to take the time to learn on their own and sum it all up.
Very good post. And true.

Lifting in any form is a lifestyle.

I was lucky back in the day. There was far less information. Now a days the information overload can drive a man crazy. Things can, and often are made far too complicated than they are.

This is not to knock systems and techniques by any means. Everything can have it's time and place. But for 90% of the Joes and Janes out there, they do NOT need anything complicated for quite some time.
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:28 AM   #53
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i got into this with someone on a uk site.i agree they go hand in hand and personally the lower rep ranges work better for me in size gain.he pretty much told me i was full of it and its either one or the other.his thinking for this was powerlifters lift for power and not size and they always compete in the same weight class so they dont gain weight.it was useless arguing so i just dropped it.
There's this odd myth that modern powerlifting and bodybuilding training are polar opposites which really reveals ignorance and tunnel vision. As we know, they actually look quite similar, though they have different goals.

Powerlifters are not toiling away doing only 1-3 rep sets.

If I took many of the Wendler's templates and changed the sets of the big 4 lifts into a 5x5 or 3x5, I could repackage it as a muscle building program and no one would know the difference.
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:20 PM   #54
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I know what you're saying about all the information out there, It just seems to me nowadays if you post some good, logical, information on lifting/bodybuilding/powerlifting/strengthtraining/dieting/bulking/etc. Theres at least 10 other things out there that can contradict what you posted, thus creating an argument. And this is with any information, seeing as how there isn't one correct answer out there for the questions people have.

It just frustrates people like me that have to be active on forums for my rep position and I give a helpful post to someone that, if they actually took the time and listened and applied themselves, it would most likely work for them in some way. And then I have to deal with the other handful of people throwing their 10 other methods that conflict or contradict what I say, and ill refrain from ranting about how 99% of those people haven't done anything in the bodybuilding/powerlifting/powerbuilding/fitness/training/etc. world.

Gets me all frustrated and such.
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Old 01-18-2011, 10:01 AM   #55
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i like the point with the volume vs the reps.

A trainee might keep progression good with sets of 2x15 reps with 1min breaks.
but after he adapted to it you need more to disrupt homeostasis.

So what you do? Increase volume or the weight?

I am more on the side of "intensity" cause we know that there SEEMS to be the average mark of 24-50reps per session for a good amount of volume.

So it would be wise to remain the volume and fatigue but to up the weight.

2x15 with 1 min rest gets 3x8-10 with 1 min rest.
same volume same fatigue more weight -new adaption.

After some time that would be too less again. So you cluster up again
3x8-10 reps 1min rest gets 5x6 with 1 min rest...

In the end you got the famous 10x3.

Thats also the point why many trainees who trained for some time tend to go lower with the reps-cause they need simply more weight toi disrupt their system.

Each rep scheme has its place.

You must know when.
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Old 01-18-2011, 10:48 AM   #56
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...cause we know that there SEEMS to be the average mark of 24-50reps per session for a good amount of volume.
Hi Flow,

Could you elaborate on this point please?
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MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:15 PM   #57
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Hi Flow,

Could you elaborate on this point please?
jup.

I donīt have references on studies regarding that (Kraemer etc didnīt make that),but you see a "empirical" line of these 24-50 reps for at least hypertrophy:

-Chad waterburys rep set bible
-Dave Tates templates for acessory work
-5/3/1 and Wendlers templates (boring but Big etc )
-REcommondations form Pavel (Beyond Bodybuilding)
-Kelly Bagget articles.
-John Cristys articles

If you look closely they are all in the line of 24-50 reps for volume.(look at the common schemes: 5x5 5x10 8x3 3x12 3x8 etc)

Also regarding volume there is a point of diminishing returns (Zatsiorsky).

Donīt say its the only method to look at the volume ,cause u can also discuss the matter of quality reps which could count only like DC. (reps near failure ft recruitment blabla)
but thats another topic
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:22 PM   #58
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^Thanks, but I'm not familiar with these references, and I don't quite get it.

If session means one workout, and the 24 to 50 reps are spread evenly over exercises, that would mean your max workout would last maybe 15 minutes?

For instance: 50 reps would equal 5 sets of 10 reps per set...

I am by no means a pro, and don't use high volume in my workouts. But I average 17 total sets per workout. Which - again, as an average - is around 170 total reps.

That is more than 3 times that MAX number of reps you are advocating. And, as I said, I'm not an advanced builder.

Maybe I don't understand what you're talking about...?
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MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:28 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by flow View Post
jup.

I donīt have references on studies regarding that (Kraemer etc didnīt make that),but you see a "empirical" line of these 24-50 reps for at least hypertrophy:
-Chad waterburys rep set bible
-Dave Tates templates for acessory work
-5/3/1 and Wendlers templates (boring but Big etc )
-REcommondations form Pavel (Beyond Bodybuilding)
-Kelly Bagget articles.
-John Cristys articles

If you look closely they are all in the line of 24-50 reps for volume.(look at the common schemes: 5x5 5x10 8x3 3x12 3x8 etc)

Also regarding volume there is a point of diminishing returns (Zatsiorsky).

Donīt say its the only method to look at the volume ,cause u can also discuss the matter of quality reps which could count only like DC. (reps near failure ft recruitment blabla)
but thats another topic
Yep, I came across a site on the internet that had the exact same info; I did take brief notes and have put them somewhere...but a combo of sets and reps etc that equal the desired number seemed to be the key, so for 24 reps, it would be any combo within reason:

sets x reps
3 x 8
4 x 6
8 x 3
6 x 4
2 x 12
5 x 5 (only 1 over)

Hope that helps a bit more Abaddon; if I can locate either the link or the info, I'll update but I'm not sure I'll be able to.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:31 PM   #60
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Ahhhhh!
So, it's per exercise, not per 'session'?
I think that's what I was confused about.

I can't say that I have used that scheme (typically I use 3x 12, or sometimes 4x 12, depending on the exercise)

Thanks Babs!
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MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
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