Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Muscle Building and Bodybuilding
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-13-2010, 11:04 AM   #1
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,946
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default HLM Training - A Look At Light Days

Most of us are familiar with HLM fullbody routines. And, many of us - including myself - aren't big fans of "too many" isolation exercises.

I thought I would toss this topic out for discussion. How would you build a routine for beginners or intermediates that was HLM, but wasn't isolation overkill?
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-15-2010, 10:08 PM   #2
jdmalm123
Less is More
Max Brawn
Points: 13,158, Level: 74 Points: 13,158, Level: 74 Points: 13,158, Level: 74
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
jdmalm123's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,950
Training Exp: not enough
Training Type: General Fitness
Fav Exercise: the one that doesn't hurt
Fav Supp: Milk
Reputation: 410272
jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
How would you build a routine for beginners or intermediates that was HLM, but wasn't isolation overkill?
Beginners with what goal?
__________________
Balance
jdmalm123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 11:05 PM   #3
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,946
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmalm123 View Post
Beginners with what goal?
Muscle gain. I'm talking strictly in a bodybuilding sense.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 12:18 AM   #4
kitarpyar
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94
Activity: 50% Activity: 50% Activity: 50%
 
kitarpyar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,737
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Reputation: 121110
kitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Muscle gain. I'm talking strictly in a bodybuilding sense.
Casey Butt's post is worth re-posting here.

Quote:
Advanced Full-body routines would be a topic for an entire book, so it isn't easy to cover in a post, but I'll try to cover the basics as I see them. Keep in mind that this is just one implementation of advanced full-body training - there are many others.


Principles:

1) Muscle protein synthesis returns to baseline within 36-48 hours of even intense, high-volume training, though the processes of muscular damage and repair may extend beyond this. Muscles can, however, be trained even though they may not be finished recuperating from previous training. Therefore, muscles can be trained successfully three times per week.

2) Connective tissue recovery is much slower than muscle recovery. Nervous system inhibition may also last longer than 48 hours. So most people, even though they may be able to train the muscle three times per week, will not be able to train the same exercises heavily three times per week.


Guidelines:

1) Select one major exercise for each of the body's major motions - pressing, pulling, and squatting - for each training session. This core work should consist of basic, free-weight, compound movements. Accessory work can be added after this part of the training is done, but it is to be just that - 'accessory work', not the main event.

2) Perform different reps on the different days of the week. Perform the heaviest, lowest reps on the first training day, the lightest, highest rep work on the next training day (48 hrs later) and the moderate, medium rep-range work on the last training day of the week (48 hours after light day). Rest two full days and repeat the cycle with slightly heavier (even by only a pound or less) weights, or performing at least one more rep on at least one of your sets of an exercise.

3) Take longer breaks of 2-3 minutes between sets on your heavy days, shorter rests of a minute or less on your light days, and 2 minutes rest between sets on your medium days.

4) At the more advanced stages select major exerciess that are significantly different from each other for each of the training days.

5) Place the exercises that apply the heaviest loading on the first day of the week. Place the exercises that apply the lightest loading two days after that. Place the exercises that apply medium loading on the last day of the week. In other words arrange your workouts in a heavy, light and medium fashion.

6) Even though you call the days "heavy, light and medium" you actually train hard on all three days - it's the loading and the rep range, not the effort, that determines how 'heavy' an exercise is considered.

Sample Strength/Bulking Routine

Monday
Bench Press 5x5-7
Bent-Over Row 5x5-7
Squat 5x5-7
Barbell Curl 5x5-7
Abs 3x12-15

Wednesday
Press Behind-Neck 4x10-15
Wide-grip Pull-Up 4x10-15
Sissy Squat 4x10-15
Forearm work 4-6x12-20
Neck work 4-6x12-20

Friday
Incline Press 4x8-12
Power Clean/High Pull 5x5-7
Front Squat 4x8-12
Decline Triceps Extension 4x8-12
Calves 3x12-20

That's a basic strength/bulk oriented advanced routine - very good for anyone looking to gain overall muscle mass.

Purely for advanced bodybuilding purposes I usually structure things something like this...

Monday
Incline Press 5x5-7
Bent-Over Row 5x5-7
Clean and Press 5x5-7
Squat 5x5-7
Barbell Curl 5x5-7
Abs 3x12-15

Wednesday
Cross-Bench DB Pullover 4x10-15
Wide-grip Pull-Up 4x10-15
Overhead Squat 4x10-15
OR DB Lateral Raise 4x10-15
Sissy Squat 4x10-15
Forearm work 4-6x12-20

Friday
Chest Dip 4x8-12
Power Clean/High Pull 5x5
OR Stiff-Legged Deadlift 5x5
Behind-the-Neck Press 4x8-12
Front Squat 4x8-12
Decline Triceps Extension 4x8-12
Calves 3-4x12-20

These workouts should take about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes, with Wednesdays being about an hour or less.

For someone who's very advanced and/or training with upcoming competition in mind the heavy day might look like this...

Monday
Incline Press 5x5-7
Chest Dips 5x5-7
Moderate-grip Pull-Up 4x8-10
Bent-Over Row 5x5-7
Clean and Press 5x5-7
DB Lateral Raise 4x10-15
Squat 3-5x5-7
Front Squat 5x5-7
Abs 3x12-20

That would take about 1:35 to 1:45 and would demand a heavy food intake afterwards for recovery and to take advantage of the huge growth stimulus delivered to the whole body ...a very Park-ish day.

Light Day might be...

Wednesday
Cross-Bench DB Pullover 4x10-15
Close-Grip Pull-Up 4x10-15
Seated Bent-Forward DB Lateral Raise 3-4x10-15
Sissy Squat 4x10-15
Preacher Curl 4x8-12
Triceps Pressdown 4x8-12
Wrist Curl 3-4x12-20
Calf Raise 3-4x12-20

Friday - Medium Day
Bench Press 4x8-10
Parallel Grip OR 2-DB Bent-Over Rows 4x8-10
Behind-the-Neck Press 4x8-10
Roman Chair Squat 4x8-12
Stiff-Legged Deadlift 4x8-10
DB Curl 4x8-12
Lying Triceps Extension 4x8-12
Reverse-Grip Wrist Curl 3-4x12-20
Seated Calf Raise 3-4x12-20

Obviously, the heavy day in this case is pretty brutal, so the light day contains no heavy pressing, rowing or back squatting to allow for recovery. Also, as the routines get more complex the underlying principles appear to get lost, but if you look closely they're there. I might have left something out too, because much of this is off the top of my head and my mind is getting muddled after typing all this. This a very intensive routine and the vast majority of genetically typical trainees would gain muscle and strength much quicker on the two routines listed before this one.

In all routines, the days can be rearranged so that some body parts are trained 'light' while others get hit 'heavy' and 'medium' on the same day. For instance, Monday might be 'heavy' for legs (Squats 5x5) but 'medium' for chest (Incline Press 4x8-12), etc.

Having gone through all that I have to say that Reg Park, Steve Reeves, Eiferman, Ross, Kono, etc would actually not perform different exercises on each of the training days - they'd simply do the same routines but adjust their effort level by how they felt. That ability to instinctively know what their bodies needed and could handle was not only critical in allowing them to train full-body three times per week, it's also what made them champions.

The cycling ideas I've presented here (heavy, light, medium - different exercises on different days) were pioneered by people like Bob Hoffman (who began prescribing something similar in the 1930s) and Bill Starr (who wrote about it extensively from the 1960s to present). Marvin Eder and Doug Hepburn also cycled their training loads to different degrees, with Hepburn being very structured about it and eventually winning the World Weightlifting Championship as a result. Most of what went on to become the Soviet system of periodization was taken from Hepburn's concepts. Kono cycled his loads, but more instinctively. Park went for broke all he could, ate like ten men and slept like a newborn to support that. Most of Park's routines, up to his peak condition of 225 pounds and Bench Pressing 500 pounds and Squatting 600 (with no support gear and years before the 'invention' of the first anabolic steroids), would be considered 'beginner' routines by today's 'standards'. Park felt it wasn't the level of sophistication put into a routine, it's the level of work and how strong you get - he became obsessed simply with lifting more weight on the barbell.
kitarpyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 05:19 PM   #5
jdmalm123
Less is More
Max Brawn
Points: 13,158, Level: 74 Points: 13,158, Level: 74 Points: 13,158, Level: 74
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
jdmalm123's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,950
Training Exp: not enough
Training Type: General Fitness
Fav Exercise: the one that doesn't hurt
Fav Supp: Milk
Reputation: 410272
jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!jdmalm123 is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Muscle gain. I'm talking strictly in a bodybuilding sense.
Well, I started out doing 6-day BBing splits when I was 16. I was definitely under-eating at the time, but I still think it was the wrong way to go.

I would have to be honest and say that any BBing base should be built on a pure strength base. Squats, DL, OH Press, Rows and to a lesser degree, bench press.

You could work up to an impressive strength level, then add reps at that stage (similar to Bulldozer) and THEN worry about "shaping." I think if you're not close to a BW of 200 lbs, then what are you shaping?

After a more basic break-in (like Starting Strength), I really like the MadCow 5x5 format, so something similar to that would be my suggestion.
__________________
Balance
jdmalm123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 08:12 PM   #6
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,946
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmalm123 View Post
Well, I started out doing 6-day BBing splits when I was 16. I was definitely under-eating at the time, but I still think it was the wrong way to go.

I would have to be honest and say that any BBing base should be built on a pure strength base. Squats, DL, OH Press, Rows and to a lesser degree, bench press.

You could work up to an impressive strength level, then add reps at that stage (similar to Bulldozer) and THEN worry about "shaping." I think if you're not close to a BW of 200 lbs, then what are you shaping?

After a more basic break-in (like Starting Strength), I really like the MadCow 5x5 format, so something similar to that would be my suggestion.
I like that approach to HLM as well. I think instead of going a isolation-style light day, if I were to design a HLM, light day would be a backoff...maybe moreso them Starr.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 01:10 PM   #7
Jude
Senior Member
Brawn
Points: 6,706, Level: 53 Points: 6,706, Level: 53 Points: 6,706, Level: 53
Activity: 5% Activity: 5% Activity: 5%
 
Jude's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 100
Reputation: 1123
Jude has made some good postsJude has made some good postsJude has made some good postsJude has made some good postsJude has made some good postsJude has made some good postsJude has made some good postsJude has made some good postsJude has made some good posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Most of us are familiar with HLM fullbody routines. And, many of us - including myself - aren't big fans of "too many" isolation exercises.

I thought I would toss this topic out for discussion. How would you build a routine for beginners or intermediates that was HLM, but wasn't isolation overkill?
In a shameless attempt to get you and others to look at and comment on my workout log:http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16535,
and in direct response to your question, I like Andy Baker's interpretation of Bill Starr's Heavy Light Medium for the older trainee. He addresses this in the section on programming in the book he wrote with Rippetoe. Practical Programming. There is a new edition out. This is the routine I copied from the book that eliminates the olympic movements:

Workout 1: Heavy Day

Squats: 5x5 *(3x5) *(1x5)
Bench press: 4x5 *(3x5) *(1x5)
Barbell row: 4x8 *(3x5) *(1x5)


Workout 2: Light Day

Squats: 3x5 *(3x3)
Press: 4x5 *(3x3)
Deadlifts: 1x5 *(1x3)

Workout 3: Medium Day

Squats: 3x5 *(1x5)
Incline press: 4x5 *(1x5)
Chins/Pull Ups: 3-5 x 5-8


*Use 5x5 on weeks 1-4 (Heavy Day)
*Use 3x5 on weeks 5-9 (Heavy Day)
*Use 1x5 on weeks 10-12 (Heavy Day)

*Drop to 3x3 on Light Day (failure to get reps)
*Drop to 1x5 on Medium Day (fail to get reps)

I am using this template and I am on week 5. I do not think anyone would accuse this routine of "isolation overkill"!

Here are articles that Andy Baker posted on his blog that are somewhat related:

http://www.bakerstrengthcoaching.com...uction-squats/
http://www.bakerstrengthcoaching.com...rt-2-pressing/
http://www.bakerstrengthcoaching.com...art-3-pulling/

Last edited by Jude; 03-04-2014 at 01:15 PM.
Jude is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 02:02 PM   #8
miked96
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 13,418, Level: 75 Points: 13,418, Level: 75 Points: 13,418, Level: 75
Activity: 12% Activity: 12% Activity: 12%
 
miked96's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greenville,SC
Posts: 1,799
Reputation: 143623
miked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master member
Default

Similar to the article, I set it up with one compound exercise for the legs,shoulder girdle, and back. So basically a squat,press, and pull. For example:
Squat-Back,Front,Pause
Press-Bench, Standing Press, Incline
Pull-Deadlift,DB Row, Barbell Row

All the heavy exercises go on day one, light on day two, and medium on day three. This allows the trainee to still come in work hard and push for PRs but the exercises will dictate the stress causing on the musculature or the total tonnage. Basically you handle more weight in the bench than you do the press. You handle more weight in the bench than the incline but more than the press so its a medium exercise.
I have trained this way in a one car garage when I was short on time and its effective. I tried the repeating the same exercise but going light and then a little heavier on the medium day but I preferred this way better.
miked96 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 06:34 PM   #9
EliteDreams
Moderation is for cowards
Max Brawn
Points: 12,838, Level: 73 Points: 12,838, Level: 73 Points: 12,838, Level: 73
Activity: 27% Activity: 27% Activity: 27%
 
EliteDreams's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: N Ga Mountains
Posts: 5,750
Training Exp: Started 5/2/11
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: PRs
Fav Supp: Steak
Reputation: 447872
EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!EliteDreams is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miked96 View Post
Similar to the article, I set it up with one compound exercise for the legs,shoulder girdle, and back. So basically a squat,press, and pull. For example:
Squat-Back,Front,Pause
Press-Bench, Standing Press, Incline
Pull-Deadlift,DB Row, Barbell Row

All the heavy exercises go on day one, light on day two, and medium on day three. This allows the trainee to still come in work hard and push for PRs but the exercises will dictate the stress causing on the musculature or the total tonnage. Basically you handle more weight in the bench than you do the press. You handle more weight in the bench than the incline but more than the press so its a medium exercise.
I have trained this way in a one car garage when I was short on time and its effective. I tried the repeating the same exercise but going light and then a little heavier on the medium day but I preferred this way better.
I like that Mike. You care to go into the volume you used for each day?

Id have to do something like pulldowns instead of dumbell rows, and push press instead of incline.
__________________
"Thats you, a new creation born of tragedy, but capable of greatness." - jdmalm123


The gates of hell have been unlocked, headstones pushed aside!
EliteDreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 08:21 PM   #10
miked96
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 13,418, Level: 75 Points: 13,418, Level: 75 Points: 13,418, Level: 75
Activity: 12% Activity: 12% Activity: 12%
 
miked96's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greenville,SC
Posts: 1,799
Reputation: 143623
miked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master membermiked96 is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteDreams View Post
I like that Mike. You care to go into the volume you used for each day?

Id have to do something like pulldowns instead of dumbell rows, and push press instead of incline.
No problem. I had two sets ups a ramping 5x5 (example 135x5,185x5,225x5,275x5,315x5). I tried to increase the last two sets usually 5 pounds a session. The other was a 3x5 ramp followed by a 3x3 ramp (135x5,185x5,225x5,275x3,315x3,345x3)

I only had weights, a rack and a flat bench at the time so our situations were similar. I did:

Day 1
Squats 5x5
Bench 5x5
Power Shrugs 5x5

Day 2
Front Squats 3x3
Standing Press Behind Neck 5x5
Power Cleans 3x3

Day 3
Pause squats 3x3
Standing press 5x5
Bent over rows 5x5

Last edited by miked96; 03-04-2014 at 08:25 PM.
miked96 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
days, hlm, light, training


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Training 5 days per week not so bad ? abett07 Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 3 08-21-2012 05:08 AM
Training more than 4 days a week 70sBB Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 10 06-08-2012 09:16 PM
Faster than light BendtheBar General Board 6 09-23-2011 06:20 PM
When and how much Creatine on a Peaking phase, non training days? Marc Nutrition, Diet and Supplements 3 09-27-2010 08:43 PM
Training 6 days a week? TitanWIP Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 18 09-06-2010 07:51 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.