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Old 11-23-2009, 10:35 AM   #11
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No. You're overtraining.

For a newb, isolation exercises are not allowed. Nor are 6 day splits. Train 3 days a week, preferably fullbody, and master the basic lifts.
Agreed on the over-training!

Isolation movements are okay for a newb, but only if they are doing these first: Squat, Deadlift, Bench, and pull-ups on their designated day.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:13 PM   #12
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Isolation movements are okay for a newb, but only if they are doing these first: Squat, Deadlift, Bench, and pull-ups on their designated day.
Can anyone trell me the benefits of isolation exercises when you're a newb?
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:17 PM   #13
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Can anyone trell me the benefits of isolation exercises when you're a newb?
IMHO isolations for a newb are only really beneficial to the psyche, like the guy who has to do curls. thats why i take the marie antoinette approach and "Let them eat cake"
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:39 PM   #14
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Personally, I'd rather see a newb squatting twice a week and spending time with the primary heavy compound movements. Rows, Pullups. Deadlifts. Bench Press. Dips. Military Press. Upright Rows. Squats, Romanian Deadlifts. Closegrip benches. Curls. Etc.

A newb doesn't need much stimulation to grow. From a priority standpoint, once the basics are all knocked out, I don't care what a newb does...as long as the basics aren't sacrificed.

Many new trainees burnout from doing too much. I would rather see a beginner spend only 90 to 120 minutes each week in the gym during the first month of training. Get in, do the basics, and get out.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:02 PM   #15
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Can anyone trell me the benefits of isolation exercises when you're a newb?
My only disagreement with people about n00bs not needing isolation is in the form of lat pull-downs.

Most people, and especially n00bs, couldn't do a pull-up/chin-up to save their lives. I'm all for negatives and holds to build up some strength, but unless there is an assisted pull-up machine or assistance bands, I think MOST people can benefit from some volume work on the lat pulldown machine.

I'm "decent" at chins/pull-ups, but I still hit up single arm pull-downs once or twice a week since I don't have access to an assistance machine or bands.

Just my opinion....

Editz - As MAB said, lat pull-downs should be utilized after the big compounds have been completed and you've done your pull-up negatives/holds.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:09 PM   #16
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Yeah...I don't want to confuse anyone. It's not so much that I'm against isolations. It's just a priority thing for me.

Personally, I just don't have time for them. The time investment versus reward factor is low.

And lat pulldowns...many of us can't do pullups, so they are a viable alternative, as are negative pullups.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:24 PM   #17
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IMO, the one reason why pull-downs turn out to be less effective than pull-ups (assuming one can do both) is because there is a greater leeway in screwing up the form.

Pull-down, if subbed for a pull-up should be a vertical pull; but most folks lean back and end up engaging the biceps and forearms too much in their quest to use heavier weights. IMO, it should also be emphasized that strict form should be maintained for pull-downs; better still, I prefer the pull-down behind the neck with moderate weights and reps.

I dont have a very good idea of the body's mechanics too much; what I wrote here ^^^ is based on how I feel the muscles, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong here
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:31 PM   #18
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So as I don't confuse anyone....

I wasn't saying lat pull downs should be a substitute from pull-ups/chins. They should be an accompanying thing.

So, if you can only do 3 sets of 4 negatives, then that's all you do. That's what I would consider your "main" lift and the one you keep track of progress on. Once those are done, then you head on over to the lat machine so that you can actually work some volume.
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:57 PM   #19
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IMO, the one reason why pull-downs turn out to be less effective than pull-ups (assuming one can do both) is because there is a greater leeway in screwing up the form.

Pull-down, if subbed for a pull-up should be a vertical pull; but most folks lean back and end up engaging the biceps and forearms too much in their quest to use heavier weights. IMO, it should also be emphasized that strict form should be maintained for pull-downs; better still, I prefer the pull-down behind the neck with moderate weights and reps.

I dont have a very good idea of the body's mechanics too much; what I wrote here ^^^ is based on how I feel the muscles, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong here
I agree with what you're saying here. Pulldowns are abused. They are one of my "mental block" movements. I've seen so many casual lifters who just do the bench-curl-abs-pulldown workout, that I've always tried to avoid them.

I know that personally, when I did perform the movement, it was darn near impossible to keep great form. Then again, maybe an explosive pulldown might be better.

I'll never know. I'm a T-bar row and Yates row guy.
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:45 PM   #20
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Yeah...I don't want to confuse anyone. It's not so much that I'm against isolations. It's just a priority thing for me.

Personally, I just don't have time for them. The time investment versus reward factor is low.

And lat pulldowns...many of us can't do pullups, so they are a viable alternative, as are negative pullups.
I agree with the priority, but I made some solid progress (IMO) with finishing isolation movements after the staple movements. After all, I'm a BB not a PL But really it all comes down to doing what you like. I see guys in the gym that start out with isolation movements and it's all I can do not to say something in a helpful way. But really how do you go up to a stranger and do that?
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