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Muscle Building and Bodybuilding Topics related to muscle building, bodybuilding, including training and fullbody workouts. If you are looking for great advice on gaining muscle this forum is for you.

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:03 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post

Where is all this coming from Offroad?
From many, many trainers that are way more experienced than myself. From guys like, and starting with, Iron Addict all the way up to Dave Tate and many of the Elitefts crew, and many more in-between. And from my own experience with my son. I can say without a doubt that it has worked wonders for his confidence and his form is really good now that we've started being progressive with the barbell movements. There was almost a zero learning curve when he started doing the big lifts.

We tell new lifters every day that the most basic stuff works best. There's nothing more basic than doing a push-up, they do them all the time in Physical Education classes and at home in their bedrooms. We tell new lifters every day that strength training is not a sprint but marathon. Spending a month or two getting good at the bodyweight movements is but a drop in the bucket of training time. I know it's not a popular opinion among the [more] hardcore crowd, but that really doesn't bother me much.

Last edited by Off Road; 02-11-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:16 AM   #12
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Surely you see my point and that of Spiritthief as well?

Asking a rank beginner to perform a push-up as a means of getting started represents a far harder task than asking them to bench press the empty bar or a lighter empty bar.

Why would you start with the harder option? Start easy and build them up progressively, with incremental loads, just like you can with a barbell.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:19 AM   #13
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An example of what Dave Tate is doing with his own son. Before letting his son begin doing any bench press, his son has to be able to complete 30 perfect bar-push-ups. He places a barbell in the rack using a high pin placement. When his son is able to complete his 30 reps, he lowers the pin. This starts the movement at an easier angle to allow progressive overload over time and build confidence in the movement. When he reaches the bottom hole he'll start him benching just the bar, which should be easy at that point. That's a pretty good bench presser teaching his own son the way he feels is best.

He also believes that the push-ups build core strength that will be valuable when performing the bench press.

Last edited by Off Road; 02-11-2013 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:23 AM   #14
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So you're suggesting he begin doing progressive push-ups in that manner then.

Not actual push ups like you suggested initially.

My bad for not being able to read minds then I guess?
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:36 AM   #15
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IMO, the benefit of starting with BW exercises is whole-body integration, coordination. You usually are working your core and balance, etc. much more if you start there which will help you later, and, which may not be properly developed with traditional weight lifting exercises if your form is not coached.

That said, have no doubt, a simple DB or BB program will be the best way to add strength and muscle if you keep your rest and food in line with your effort and goal.

I was a skinny kid and have tried too many things in over 20 years. If I had it to do over, I would master bench, squat, dead lift, military press, pull ups & chin ups and some form of row. Yes, there are accessory moves to try that are beneficial, but I would never stray far from those key moves.

We shouldn't be allowed to step away from the base moves unless we can hit some serious markers. I would aim for 1.5xBW bench, 2xBW squat, 2.5xBW dead lift, 1xBW military press, and at least 20 straight pull ups or chin ups. This can take years and may be boring at times, but it's foundational. Also, realize, your BW will increase over time so you're chasing a moving target.

Last key, for most, I think less is more. That is, train hard, but as little as possible to make progress. Recovery time is critical to growth and you'll make your fastest progress the first year or so on a good program, but why train 3-5 times per week if you advance on 2 times per week? The point is not the number of days, it's finding the minimum number of days that work for you. One lesson I've learned is that I did a lot of "work" and would have gone further if I had had more rest (especially true if you lean toward ectomorph).
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