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-   -   Question about progression (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11712)

abett07 11-19-2012 08:40 PM

Question about progression
 
The topic of progression is something that has been talked about a lot at my gym recently. Personal trainers are basically using a sales line that they will push clients beyond the point of failure resulting in faster results.

My questions is will someone who constantly pushes themselves to failure hit a wall faster than someone who uses a steady path of progression ?

BendtheBar 11-19-2012 09:35 PM

Pushing for a rep you don't have the strength to complete is certainly more taxing on many of the body's systems. We tend to look only at the muscular system, but you also have to account for the CNS, connective tissue, etc. There is a greater chance of form breaking down as well, depending on the lift and the discipline of the lifter.

So yes, all things equal you're pushing everything harder. That doesn't necessarily mean better. The upside/downside ratio of training to failure on that lift has to be weighed.

If you believe in the school that says you have to annihilate the body each session then you're probably training to failure. I am not from that school, not do I believe in training annihilation. But that wasn't your question, so excuse my interjection. There are many from that school and they are pretty big, so it certainly works as a tool.

Kyle Aaron 11-19-2012 09:42 PM

Pushing to failure on a regular basis generally leads to just that, failure. This is a stupid sales line.

However, in most cases people working out on their own are so far from pushing themselves to failure that they don't even push themselves to enough of a stress to force their body to change. Being supervised by a competent trainer or coach will change this. This is the grain of truth in the muddy bucket of jest presented to you by these PTs.

For example, you have your one-rep maximum, the most you can lift in one go. Usually you have to lift two-thirds or more of this fairly regularly to push your 1RM to go up. But left to themselves, most people will lift only half their 1RM [Source 1]. Supervised trainees do better than unsupervised, even when those trainees are relatively well-motivated people, like young rugby players [Source 2].

Thus, being supervised by a competent trainer or coach will usually get you better results than your working out on your own. The difficulty is then finding a competent trainer or coach.

SCStrong 11-19-2012 09:52 PM

I can only speak from limited experience but when I started back lifting (only a year ago) I went all out .... and ended up fatigued and with an injury ... basically set me back to the start and forced me to all but start over.... this time out, I am starting slow and building up progressively... too soon to tell but it certainly feels better. We will see. I believe it was Lee Haney who said " stimulate don't annihilate".

abett07 11-19-2012 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron (Post 293750)
Pushing to failure on a regular basis generally leads to just that, failure. This is a stupid sales line.

However, in most cases people working out on their own are so far from pushing themselves to failure that they don't even push themselves to enough of a stress to force their body to change. Being supervised by a competent trainer or coach will change this. This is the grain of truth in the muddy bucket of jest presented to you by these PTs.

For example, you have your one-rep maximum, the most you can lift in one go. Usually you have to lift two-thirds or more of this fairly regularly to push your 1RM to go up. But left to themselves, most people will lift only half their 1RM [Source 1]. Supervised trainees do better than unsupervised, even when those trainees are relatively well-motivated people, like young rugby players [Source 2].

Thus, being supervised by a competent trainer or coach will usually get you better results than your working out on your own. The difficulty is then finding a competent trainer or coach.

Thanks for your response mate

do you have any experience with Goodlife Health clubs ?

RobMoriRB 11-20-2012 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abett07 (Post 293766)
Thanks for your response mate

do you have any experience with Goodlife Health clubs ?

If seeking a Pt there, look for one who competes, or did compete....if not your wasting your money

Rich Knapp 11-20-2012 10:27 AM

Pushing to failer is so so misunderstood.

Failer during training (not talking a P/L meet attempt, just training the muscles) is when ever you need to take a brake from your set tempo during a set. IT'S NOT when you can't even even move it.

When you take the brake and take the tention off the target muscle weather it is at a lock out or full eccentric position of the muscle, your muscle and CNS start to recover. Thats why even with a few sec brake, you can push more reps after the brake.

You took a break, you failed at that point. Admit it and move on. You just hit your goal.

:rockon:

Kyle Aaron 11-20-2012 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abett07 (Post 293766)
do you have any experience with Goodlife Health clubs ?

Nope.

There are good and bad trainers everywhere. You have to look at the individual. To get clients, a PT needs to demonstrate competence, establish trust and rapport.

Competence is important because, hey, you can fail on your own for free. Trust is important because you're putting your health in their hands. And rapport's important because you'll spend a lot of time together - I see most of my clients 2-3 times a week, I don't see any of my friends that often!

Trust and rapport are easy to judge for yourself. Competence is harder. One thing I'd say is that very competent people are easy to spot. I don't need to know anything about basketball to know Jordan was good, it was all so smooth... A very competent trainer is going to radiate it. Ordinarily competent, maybe, maybe not.

So the trick is, if there are no very competent trainers, how do you find the ordinarily competent ones. Watch the trainers in your gym, chat to some of them, and take note of things like,
  • focused attention - are they actually looking while the person exercises?
  • general attention - are they distracted by mobile phone, hot chicks in lycra or hot guys in tank tops?
  • popular - perhaps not the best word, but do people know and greet them? A good trainer will have spoken to and given advice to quite a few people in the gym. However consider this with the focus/attention points above
  • achievements - if they talk about achievements, do they talk of themselves or their clients? Because you don't care what they can do for themselves, but what they can do for you
  • explanations - are they willing and able to explain the reason for each exercise, set and rep done?
  • progression - do their clients progress, using heavier weights, more complex exercises etc over time? If you ask, can they tell you how you might progress? Not exact timeframes, but general trends. "First we do the leg press, when you can 80kg x20 and a plank for 1'00", the goblet squat, when you can do 10kg x20, the barbell back squat," etc.
  • regression - if someone is obviously incapable of doing some exercise, can they produce an appropriate regression of it, an easier version? Or do they just get you to do a half-arsed version instead? eg pushups from knees for pushups, rather than "slight elbow bend pushups".
Note that I didn't list physique changes in clients as something to watch for. That depends on things the client does, like their food. A client could have a great diet, and grow or shrink as desired on a shit routine; or have a terrible diet, and never change on a great routine. And in any case not everyone has physique change as a primary goal, some just want to get stronger, rehab an injury, etc.

There are plenty of other things to look for, those are just some off the top of my head.


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