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-   -   Min. Recovery Time (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9428)

Max 03-22-2012 01:38 PM

Min. Recovery Time
 
I know there's variables to the question, but does time differ from bodybuilding to powerlifting? My question stems from the Hepburn method,it has you working delts the day after chest. Would more sleep and calories be needed for this type of routine? And can you still expect some growth or just purely strength?

BendtheBar 03-22-2012 02:00 PM

When looking at programs there are several variables involved. One major variable is conditioning. A lifter shouldn't jump into a program like an 8x3 going guns blazing. This should be built into, with weight, time and volume.

Another thing to consider is weekly volume. How many weekly reps are you doing? On squats someone could do an 8 set x 2-3 reps, twice a week, with is about 40 reps, or a 5x5 which has a lifter squatting 3x a week, which is probably nearly the same amount of reps - give or take.

Recovery has many different layers, and is very program specific, and unique to the lifter and the point in the iron game in which the lifter is at.

One key rule to remember is to never jump full speed into any new program style. Take time and build conditioning and weight.

BendtheBar 03-22-2012 02:01 PM

By the way, which specific Hepburn variation are you looking at?

Max 03-22-2012 02:40 PM

Extreme Powerbuilding

Monday and Thursday
•Squats, 8 sets x 2 reps (2 minute rest between sets)
•Bench Press, 8 sets x 2 reps (2 minute rest between sets)
• ***rest 5 minutes***
•Squats, 3 sets x 6 reps (2 minute rest between sets)
•Bench Press, 3 sets x 6 reps (2 minute rest between sets)

Tuesday and Friday
•Deadlift, 8 sets x 2 reps (2 minute rest between sets)
•Seated Overhead Barbell Press, 8 sets x 2 reps (2 minute rest between sets)
• ***rest 5 minutes***
•Deadlift, 3 sets x 6 reps (2 minute rest between sets)
•Seated Overhead Barbell Press, 3 sets x 6 reps (2 minute rest between sets)

I plan on going a little lighter at first then after a month or 2 adjusting %'s.

BendtheBar 03-22-2012 07:05 PM

Yeah that can be a tough program but I think if you work into it you'll be ok. You can either take a deload week if you feel beat up, or cycle the weight down 10% or so and work back up if your body starts taking a beating.

Max 03-29-2012 08:17 PM

Steve, just when I was getting into this routine I had too read this.:confused:

One thing Doug changed later in his life is that you DO NOT do the Power and Pump programs together in the same workout.

He felt the Pump program was overkill and probably did him more harm than good. 8 sets of 90% singles followed by a full 5×5 would kill any of us.

His refined training which he advised when older and wiser (in the late 90′s before his death) went like this:

“A Routine” – Use Singles, start with 4 total and build up one rep per workout until you hit 10. (4 to 10 reps with 90%)

“B Routine” – Use triples and do the same progression. This was used when you went stale on the “A” routine, and was used until you were using the same weight for triples as you did for singles on “A” (12-30 reps with 75-80%)

You would do the “A” program until you went stale (and you WILL go stale, trust me) and then switch to the “B” routine for a few months. You don’t pick and choose depending on the day,you use them in order, A/B/A/B… Doug thought the average guy could go 4 months on each before having to switch to the other program. THIS, he said, was the key to continued gains.

If using the “old style” workouts, you ALWAYS add the single reps to the FIRST sets until you hit the goal. For example:

3/3/3/3/3
4/3/3/3/3
5/3/3/3/3
5/4/3/3/3… and so on…
One thing Doug changed later in his life is that you DO NOT do the Power and Pump programs together in the same workout.

He felt the Pump program was overkill and probably did him more harm than good. 8 sets of 90% singles followed by a full 5×5 would kill any of us.

His refined training which he advised when older and wiser (in the late 90′s before his death) went like this:

“A Routine” – Use Singles, start with 4 total and build up one rep per workout until you hit 10. (4 to 10 reps with 90%)

“B Routine” – Use triples and do the same progression. This was used when you went stale on the “A” routine, and was used until you were using the same weight for triples as you did for singles on “A” (12-30 reps with 75-80%)

You would do the “A” program until you went stale (and you WILL go stale, trust me) and then switch to the “B” routine for a few months. You don’t pick and choose depending on the day,you use them in order, A/B/A/B… Doug thought the average guy could go 4 months on each before having to switch to the other program. THIS, he said, was the key to continued gains.

If using the “old style” workouts, you ALWAYS add the single reps to the FIRST sets until you hit the goal. For example:

3/3/3/3/3
4/3/3/3/3
5/3/3/3/3
5/4/3/3/3… and so on…

You think they were talking about the one I posted above? If so do you think if I keep the same workout, but just split the power and pump days up it would still work?

BendtheBar 03-29-2012 09:04 PM

Just saw this. Finishing up a project and will respond in a few...

BendtheBar 03-29-2012 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max (Post 228551)

One thing Doug changed later in his life is that you DO NOT do the Power and Pump programs together in the same workout.

He felt the Pump program was overkill and probably did him more harm than good. 8 sets of 90% singles followed by a full 5×5 would kill any of us.

Right. The heavier the weight gets, the more benefit you tend to derive from lower rep sets when looking at pure strength gains. There are many other factors involved of course...frequency, volume, etc.

Doug probably found out he was making great gains with the singles alone. That's basically what I'm doing and really have no personal need for rep work. It is bothersome and usually only gives me DOMS. It can work in the right structure (Smolov, Sheiko, whatever), but you are also not adding 8 90% singles each day on top of the volume.

Quote:

Doug thought the average guy could go 4 months on each before having to switch to the other program. THIS, he said, was the key to continued gains.
Right. I've studied Doug extensively and am fairly familiar with all this. Doug never deloaded, so he would reach a stage where he had to make adjustments.

Quote:

You think they were talking about the one I posted above? If so do you think if I keep the same workout, but just split the power and pump days up it would still work?
Most likely they were talking about a minimal split, 4 days.

There are 1000 ways to cook an egg. I personally never liked the 8x2 followed by pump work. I ran it for quite a while and it was just too time consuming. I reduced the main lift to 6x2 for several months and tried to acclimate.

All of this is tied into fatigue management. You can manage that in many ways. Doug alternated programs because deloading was not on his radar screen. In the modern era deloads are a tool we can use to stave off the need to change programs like Doug did, and recommended.

I think if you're going to do an aggressive program like Doug's with 2 days of heavy singles, then you can either address fatigue management by alternating programs week in and week out - a form of periodization, with possibly a third week deload, or you can run the 8x2 for 2 weeks and deload on the third week.

Splitting up the pump and heavy work results in 4 squat, 2 deadlift and 4 presss workouts per week. It's simply too much of a mish-mosh for me. It adds in programming variables making things too muddy and overly-complicated.

If I were you I would start with something like this for 2 months:

Week one
5x1 on main lifts
3x6-8 pump work
I wouldn't do pump work for deads, but instead use barbell rows.

Week two
6x2 on main lifts
3x6-8 pump work
I wouldn't do pump work for deads, but instead use barbell rows.

Deload Week 3
Same as week 2 with only 60-70 percent of the weight.

Start with a weight about 80% of what you think you could do for the heavier sets. Build up over 2-3 months, and then at that time if you are doing great maybe move to 8x2 if you feel it's needed.

Odds are it won't be needed. I think you could sustain progression for quite some time.

Again, this is merely one way to cook an egg.

Max 03-30-2012 02:14 AM

Thanks for your time and the detailed explanation Steve, I should have posted the whole routine cause theres a C w/o added. Just out of curiosity, can the A/B described above be worked like the power and pump routine?

BendtheBar 03-30-2012 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max (Post 228583)
Just out of curiosity, can the A/B described above be worked like the power and pump routine?

Glad to help. Hope I'm not too confusing. Wrote that when I was a little tired last night.

Not sure I understand your question. Do you mean power one week, pump the next?


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