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Old 05-09-2013, 12:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Corcioch View Post
The meta analysis and subsequent 'peer reviewed' articles on it did not limit the list of possible benefactors of Vit C to those listed in the Cochrane Review. It referred to physical and environmental stress.

Which you tried to then whittle down to recreational weight trainers......,,where did I state recreational weight trainers?? stick to the facts.

Then you move onto an assumption about the manner in which people supplement with Vit C......and you make a statement, based utterly on assumption, that most people who take Vitamin C are doing so through multi vitamins. I think you'll find most don't...but that wouldn't be convenient to your 'argument'

Then we go back to your little study....like I said, it's not peer reviewed. And it's extremely poor. There are too many sweeping statments and too few facts.

How many IU of Vit C were administered to each person daily, what was the amount in excess of rda IU given and for how long?

As for the rest of the sweeping assumptions and generalisations in your reply about chewing on vitamins like smarties or whatever, knowing nothing about Nutrition etc.........thats where your argument went all 5year old and I'm not going to even bother.

Like I said, I wouldn't change a thing based on that article you referenced. It's poor to say the least as a piece of factual nutritional science
I can't make head nor tail of your opening comment (benefactor?) and some of the others. So I will address some of those that I can follow.

With regard to peer-review, I think that you might be confusing the article in science-based medicine and the study cited by the article. Obviously a blog article isn't peer-reviewed. What I wrote was that the article expresses my own feelings about vitamin supplementation - which is that it's a bit of a sacred cow.

The study which is referenced in the Science-based medicine piece is this one: JAMA Network | JAMA Internal Medicine | Dietary Supplements and Mortality Rate in Older WomenThe Iowa Women's Health Study. A quick look at the journal website tells us this in the opening sentence:

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JAMA Internal Medicine (formerly the Archives of Internal Medicine) is an international peer-reviewed journal
My emboldening. I may be doing you a disservice, but I'm wondering if you know what peer-review actually is?

The 'little study' has 38,772 participants studied over a 22 year period. I see no evidence that it is poorly conducted. Like all correlational studies, it of course has its weaknesses, and some of these are discussed in the science-based medicine article. I'll again restate that the relevance for vitamin C supplementation is that the whole culture of vitamin-taking is based on a muddled notion that 'more is better'.

The idea that people who take vitamin C take other vitamins surely isn't a giant leap of faith? For example, in the Mursu et al study, we find:

Quote:
The most commonly used supplements were calcium, multivitamins, vitamin C, and vitamin E (eTable 2); the most common supplement combinations were calcium and multivitamins; calcium, multivitamins, and vitamin C; and calcium and vitamin C.
As for not changing your habits on the basis of a blog article, good for you. If you want to keep lining the pockets of supplement companies, go ahead. Mercola and co are rubbing their hands. You might wish, however, to start looking into the growing body of evidence that in the long-term, the benefits of vitamin and mineral supplementation, including vitamin C, are equivocal at best. There are a lot of people, for example, out there taking vitamins in the mistaken belief that their antioxidant properties are going to reduce their risk of cancer or heart disease.

The picture of whether they may actually do damage is equally unclear. At least Vitamin C is probably one of the most innocuous. Beta-carotene is the one to watch out for, with one huge study abandoned when the supplemented group turned out to be showing alarming increases in mortality.

If you're specifically interested in effects on athletes, as I say, search on MAB for a thread where you'll find some links suggesting vitamin C delays recovery.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:11 PM   #22
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Your second last line sums the entire futility of this for me. Ill mention it in a moment . . . . . . . .

This is a thread discussing the benefits of Vitamin C to athletes, its there in the title . . . .and you posted on a thread about the benefits of vitamin c to athletes a post including references ( we'll leave their validity aside for now ) relating to side effects of vitamins/ minerals on older women.

. . .and then wrote about increased mortality from supplementation. Almost scaremongering tbh. Why do I say that . . . because this is a thread about Vitamin C.

No one here in all the previous posts was talking about taking huge daily IU of Zinc, Copper, Vitamin E etc etc They are utterly separate issues . . .each one of them . . .for various reasons.

And so to your second last line . . .where you finally concede that Vitamin C, the topic of this thread . . . ."is one of the most innocuous".


That's why I find your talk about mortality on a thread about Vitamin C to be basically ridiculous if i'm blunt. Other posters can complain if they like about that phrase but thats the simple truth . . .talking about mortality on a vitamin C thread is to me a bit ridiculous. Its way OTT



btw, relating to your comments about lining Mercolas pockets . . . .

Where did I ever say I was actually taking vitamin C or any supplements?? I didn't. Again you are engaging in assumption . . . .Its a constant in your posts.

I simply said I wouldn't change anything based that piece . . . .because the world is awash with studies, pieces and writings to prove any and all points of view . . . .Hence the reference to Peer Review.


Your blanket references to Vitamins and Minerals illustrates a huge lack of understanding of them in my opinion. They are so very different in their own complex ways. They have such varied and different roles, uses and possible drawbacks too. Their relevance to persons is also as varied by virtue of how different people are. Vitamin Supplementation is necessary for many persons . . .be it a singular vitamin or mineral or a few . . .the reasons for the necessity are also many. Its a role for a dietary professional to advise on what should and should not be taken . . .not a poster talking about mortality on a Vitamin C thread . . .


I made this point already and you attempted to dismiss it by referring to balanced diet . . . and its benefit being drilled into us since a young age.

That reply spoke volumes i'm afraid . . . . .showed again a lack of understanding . . . .Here is just one simple blatant reason why 'Vitamin D3'.

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Old 05-16-2013, 01:45 PM   #23
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Good read, I take my creatine with a vit C.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:33 PM   #24
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You seem entirely hung up on the idea that because Swede was talking about athletes and vitamin C in his OP, there can be no place for commenting on the wider issue of 'athletes', and other groups, over-consuming vitamins and minerals.

Whereas I feel - with all due respect to the big beardy fellow - that it's indicative of a general enthusiasm for vitamins and minerals that is unwarranted on the basis of current scientific research. I chose to comment on this. You may have noticed that conversations do not always adhere to a strictly linear model. It's a common feature of human conversation.

I think discussing the research into the possible increased mortality of vitamin consumption is relevant in a culture where many are sold on the idea that they have an increased need for particular micronutrients.

Thanks for the heads up that vitamins and minerals are 'different in complex ways'. I hadn't realised until I read that. Nevertheless, I disagree that vitamin or mineral supplementation is necessary for many people - at least in the west. I think it may be necessary for very small sub-groups. People suffering from anaemia, or who have a diet very low in iodine. Pregnant women I have already mentioned.

I offer this advice as a non-dietary professional, along with many other non dietary professionals on here who offer advice on fat consumption, protein consumption, what carbs to eat and so on. People may choose to disregard it, and I'm sure most will. However, take a look on medical and public-health websites and you'll find that most advocate eating a sensible diet rather than supplementing with vitamins. Or you can look on CAM based websites, which pretend that the last ten years in vitamin research never happened.

Look, I don't wish to be rude, but I think you're flailing around in the dark here. To take just one point, in an earlier post on here you started talking about the one study I referenced as being 'little', of poor quality and not peer-reviewed. Yet the entire text of the study is available online, and it took me about one minute to verify that it was peer-reviewed. I suspect, based on these and the general quality of your posts, that you don't have much of a scientific background (though this may be one of my many unwarranted assumptions). I enjoyed the Cochrane review, and thanks for that, but you haven't really brought anything else to the table that I can get my teeth into.

On that basis, I think we're done here.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:55 AM   #25
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Nevertheless, I disagree that vitamin or mineral supplementation is necessary for many people - at least in the west. I think it may be necessary for very small sub-groups. People suffering from anaemia, or who have a diet very low in iodine. Pregnant women I have already mentioned.
Am I to infer from such a short listing of people who need supplementation with certain Vitamins that you just simply don't know enough to add to the list??? You've ignored or are not aware of many many many more. They are not insignificant when combined. Everyone from those with inherited metabolic disorders ( any of a variety ) to persons who have made certain lifestyle food choices on a long term basis ( for personal or 'medical' reasons ). . . . . all the way to persons simply because of where they live in the west. . . . . . . to name just a few.


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However, take a look on medical and public-health websites and you'll find that most advocate eating a sensible diet rather than supplementing with vitamins.
A complete generalisation . . . .,like I said, simple example . . .Vitamin D3

( btw; Are these the same Public Health Websites that did for along time . . . claim that eating more than a few eggs a week was harmful . . .mmmm )

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Look, I don't wish to be rude, but I think you're flailing around in the dark here.
Id say the exact same thing as your good self . . .

Funny that.




If you feel a deep seated need to go to war on false Supplementation beliefs why not focus on something genuinely costly and actually futile . . . .L Glutamine supplementation as a simple example.

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Old 05-17-2013, 08:12 AM   #26
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If you feel a deep seated need to go to war on false Supplementation beliefs why not focus on something genuinely costly and actually futile . . . .L Glutamine supplementation as a simple example.
False supplement beliefs or do you mean thoroughly useless supplement?


Before it's inferred though, which it will be purely because this is a fitness site, I don't mean in relation to lifting weights.
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