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Old 05-04-2013, 12:43 PM   #11
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Thanks SecondsOut. I center my vitamin C around training times. I take it both pre and post.


i m prety confident that pre is not goood
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:23 PM   #12
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i m prety confident that pre is not goood
i'm fully confident that you're splitting hairs.

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:45 PM   #13
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I'm not convinced that vitamin C supplementation does anything much. I've linked this article before, but it's really worth a look:

Sweat Science Does vitamin C block gains from training?

Heresy, I know
Yeah, I've read before that it's not much use in terms of cold either; I think this comes down to an overall good intake, varied, of vitamins and minerals as opposed to one singular vitamin.

I also find it very odd that with all this talk of vitamin C, that few if any seem to know that kiwi fruits have more vitamin C pound for pound than oranges do...all this research, taking vitamin C, eating oranges and yet overlooking the most obviously higher intake of vitamin C available in the fruit world. Why would someone eat an orange for vitamin C purposes when it's clear that kiwi's will do a better job at providing it, it baffles me.
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:13 PM   #14
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I use Vit C. I take 1000mg's 3 times a day. Morning, mid-day, and at night before bed. Along with other vitamins and minerals through out the day
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:57 PM   #15
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I kicked the vitamin habit some years ago.

The belief that supplemental vitamins have any benefit for health is not being backed up by the largest and best-designed studies.

This article sums up my own views nicely: Science-Based Medicine Vitamins and Mortality

A couple of extracts:

Quote:
Today vitamins have a deserved reputation for being an important part of overall health. However, their reputation has gone beyond the science and taken on almost mythical proportions. Perhaps it is due to aggressive marketing from the supplement industry, perhaps recent generations have grown up being told by their parents thousands of times how important it is to take their vitamins, or eat vitamin-rich food...

...Regardless of the cause, the general feeling is that vitamins are all good – they are not only important for health, they promote health. Many people take vitamin supplements on the idea that more is better, or for nutritional “insurance” to make sure they are getting enough of every vitamin.

The problem with deeply embedded cultural beliefs is that people make decisions based upon assumptions that everyone “knows,” rather than making evidence-based risk vs benefit decisions. This phenomenon is exacerbated when the industry is able to make aggressive health claims without requiring any scientific evidence to back up those claims (as is the case in the US since DSHEA was passed in 1994).

It is therefore important to shatter the pedestal on which vitamins have been placed, to bring them down to the level of scientific evidence. The good news is, there is a ton of research on vitamins, which continue to be the subject of much new research.
The article goes on to summarise a long term study that found:

Quote:
...a small but statistically significant increase in mortality for those taking multivitamins, B6, folic acid, iron, copper, magnesium and zinc. There was also a small decrease in mortality for those taking calcium.
The article goes on to discuss some of the limitations of the study. However, this is by no means the only large scale study reporting increased mortality associated with supplemental vit use. A Cochrane review of available evidence a few years back concluded that there was not much evidence that supplemental vits do any good and some evidence that they may do harm.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:37 PM   #16
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Is that a peer reviewed piece of research??

Doesn't seem to be.

I dont see any actual reference to Vitamin C there.

Referencing Zinc, Iron, Copper etc in relation to a discussion on Vitamin C is of little use in fairness.




I don't see any reference in the studies subjects as being Athletes or sports persons??

That has been show by Meta Analysis of some of the more noteworthy studies like this( Hemila H, Chalker E, Treacy B, Douglas B. “Vitamin C for preventing and treating the common cold.” Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2007, Issue 3. )

into Vitamin C Supplementation to be an important consideration.


That Meta Analysis showed a variance on the effectiveness of Vitamin C in fighting onset and length of the Colds in persons subjected to large amounts of Physical or environmental stress . . . . . and those not. It showed there was a greater benefit to such persons and a almost meaningless benefit to persons not under physical, environmental stresses. Meaningless because there was still a benefit but it was tiny.

A hard training Powerlifter/ Bodybuilder would certainly be subjecting their body to Physical Stress. . . .such as CNS stresses from heavy lifting, constant Muscle tearing and breakdown etc


So you shouldn't cite studies that do not focus on type specific activity . . .because like shown here, variations in activity alter the relationship to your result.




There is a huge body of peer reviewed research that illustrates the huge importance of Vitamins such as C . . . . for collagen production which links to connective tissue building, ligaments, skin, cartilage etc etc disease such as scurvy, Bone Mineral density etc etc

To tell anyone that supplementation with such vitamins is a waste of time . . . without knowing the exact details of their diet is wrong imo.
You have no idea if any person is getting the Guideline Daily amounts in their diet. . .or of they are deficient. If they are deficient then they certainly can benefit.

Only when you have those facts can you say it is or isn't a waste of time to take this vitamin or that vitamin/ mineral etc etc

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Old 05-06-2013, 04:46 AM   #17
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Hi Corcioch,

1. The article linked to, as I said, expresses my own views on supplementation. The study referred to is peer-reviewed.

2. There's every point in referencing such a study. The participants were taking multivitamins as well as various minerals. Multivtamins include vitamin C. Clearly, most people who take vitamin C don't just take vitamin C, because they buy into the whole vitamin supplementation argument.

3. The whole 'athletes need more vitamins' argument is largely a mechanism to sell more vitamins. Vitamins support various metabolic processes, and it's really hard to think of one that is going to necessitate an intake of many times what a sedentary person needs.

4. The Cochrane review shows a modest effect of vitamin C (based on a relatively low number of studies) on colds in runners, skiers etc, which you've extrapolated to recreational weight-trainers. But OK, fair enough, that's reasonable. Now weigh that against the emerging body of evidence (referenced elsewhere on MAB) that active supplementation with vit C reduces recovery. That vitamin C interacts with huge numbers of other processes, such as processing of iron, which may well bring about deleterious effects. That in some people it's linked to formation of kidney stones. Add in the increased mortality from vitamin supplementation shown in some big trials (remembering that typically people don't supplement individual vitamins).

5. To address your fear that a blanket statement about vitamins fails to take into account all possible cases, I'll add this:

"If you're pregnant, you should probably supplement with folate.

If you have zero understanding of nutrition, and you haven't absorbed the messages about eating a balanced diet that you've been bombarded with since you were five, and you're eating no fruit and vegetables, and yet you've somehow found your way onto a weightlifting site, then you would benefit from changing your diet. If you really can't change your diet for some reason, then you might want to consider multivitamins. If you're a contest bodybuilder cutting for a contest and eating a highly restricted diet, again you might want to consider them.

Before you do so, you may want to talk to someone with formal training in the subject, instead of scarfing them down like smarties in the belief that they are completely harmless compounds and that more is always better."

How's that?
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:59 PM   #18
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I use Vit C. I take 1000mg's 3 times a day. Morning, mid-day, and at night before bed. Along with other vitamins and minerals through out the day


no vit c pre bed
or around work out
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:38 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Hi Corcioch,

1. The article linked to, as I said, expresses my own views on supplementation. The study referred to is peer-reviewed.

2. There's every point in referencing such a study. The participants were taking multivitamins as well as various minerals. Multivtamins include vitamin C. Clearly, most people who take vitamin C don't just take vitamin C, because they buy into the whole vitamin supplementation argument.

3. The whole 'athletes need more vitamins' argument is largely a mechanism to sell more vitamins. Vitamins support various metabolic processes, and it's really hard to think of one that is going to necessitate an intake of many times what a sedentary person needs.

4. The Cochrane review shows a modest effect of vitamin C (based on a relatively low number of studies) on colds in runners, skiers etc, which you've extrapolated to recreational weight-trainers. But OK, fair enough, that's reasonable. Now weigh that against the emerging body of evidence (referenced elsewhere on MAB) that active supplementation with vit C reduces recovery. That vitamin C interacts with huge numbers of other processes, such as processing of iron, which may well bring about deleterious effects. That in some people it's linked to formation of kidney stones. Add in the increased mortality from vitamin supplementation shown in some big trials (remembering that typically people don't supplement individual vitamins).

5. To address your fear that a blanket statement about vitamins fails to take into account all possible cases, I'll add this:

"If you're pregnant, you should probably supplement with folate.

If you have zero understanding of nutrition, and you haven't absorbed the messages about eating a balanced diet that you've been bombarded with since you were five, and you're eating no fruit and vegetables, and yet you've somehow found your way onto a weightlifting site, then you would benefit from changing your diet. If you really can't change your diet for some reason, then you might want to consider multivitamins. If you're a contest bodybuilder cutting for a contest and eating a highly restricted diet, again you might want to consider them.

Before you do so, you may want to talk to someone with formal training in the subject, instead of scarfing them down like smarties in the belief that they are completely harmless compounds and that more is always better."

How's that?

The meta analysis and subsequent 'peer reviewed' articles on it did not limit the list of possible benefactors of Vit C to those listed in the Cochrane Review. It referred to physical and environmental stress.

Which you tried to then whittle down to recreational weight trainers......,,where did I state recreational weight trainers?? stick to the facts.

Then you move onto an assumption about the manner in which people supplement with Vit C......and you make a statement, based utterly on assumption, that most people who take Vitamin C are doing so through multi vitamins. I think you'll find most don't...but that wouldn't be convenient to your 'argument'

Then we go back to your little study....like I said, it's not peer reviewed. And it's extremely poor. There are too many sweeping statments and too few facts.

How many IU of Vit C were administered to each person daily, what was the amount in excess of rda IU given and for how long?

As for the rest of the sweeping assumptions and generalisations in your reply about chewing on vitamins like smarties or whatever, knowing nothing about Nutrition etc.........thats where your argument went all 5year old and I'm not going to even bother.

Like I said, I wouldn't change a thing based on that article you referenced. It's poor to say the least as a piece of factual nutritional science

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:53 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Corcioch View Post
The meta analysis and subsequent 'peer reviewed' articles on it did not limit the list of possible benefactors of Vit C to those listed in the Cochrane Review. It referred to physical and environmental stress.

Which you tried to then whittle down to recreational weight trainers......,,where did I state recreational weight trainers?? stick to the facts.

Then you move onto an assumption about the manner in which people supplement with Vit C......and you make a statement, based utterly on assumption, that most people who take Vitamin C are doing so through multi vitamins. I think you'll find most don't...but that wouldn't be convenient to your 'argument'

Then we go back to your little study....like I said, it's not peer reviewed. And it's extremely poor. There are too many sweeping statments and too few facts.

How many IU of Vit C were administered to each person daily, what was the amount in excess of rda IU given and for how long?

As for the rest of the sweeping assumptions and generalisations in your reply about chewing on vitamins like smarties or whatever, knowing nothing about Nutrition etc.........thats where your argument went all 5year old and I'm not going to even bother.

Like I said, I wouldn't change a thing based on that article you referenced. It's poor to say the least as a piece of factual nutritional science
Is it just me or is your response, fairly rude?

Did you intend for the "tone" of your replies, to seem hostile?

Instead of just responding, only to what was posted, ( or rather, to what part, you disagreed with ) you chose to attack Tan with rude remarks, such as: " your little study" "thats where your argument went all 5year old".

You can form a valid argument ( if one is needed) based on facts and data- there is no need to be confrontational or combative. Just my two cents.
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