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Old 04-12-2012, 05:01 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ryano View Post
Comparing the Nazi death camps to having the death penalty for convicted criminals is ludicrous.
Hang on a second.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights lays down the fundamental principle that it's the right of every individual from being killed by another. So in other words, the UHDR says that as a fundamental principle, the state should not use a death penalty.

The document was published in 1948, chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt. The US signed up to it (but I think didn't ratify it, though that's another story).

Anyway, the date is significant, because the UHDR was indeed set up as a response to the Nazi atrocities. For the Nazis, it was obvious, absolutely obvious and self-evident, that the Jews, Romanies, etc were groups that should not enjoy the same rights extended to everyone else. For some in Middle-Eastern countries today, it's equally obvious that an adulterous woman should not enjoy the same rights as everyone else. For some in the west, it's obvious that terrorists have surrendered their human rights; for some in Burma, it's political dissidents.

So one group of people in the majority always defines certain actions and groups as criminals and then sets no limits on what can be done to them. And every majority group always says: 'Yes, but our criminals, our criminals are the real criminals, just look what they've done/ what they are. They're animals. They have no rights.' Execute them, harvest them for organs, nothing is too bad to be done to people that bad.

The principle of the UHDR, with its anti-death penalty stance, is to limit the power of the state to act against its people, and you can't half-buy into it. You have to either accept the principle wholesale or reject it. Those annoying human-right toutin', anti death penalty folks can point to a document signed by the majority of countries that links back to the extermination camps.

So the connection between the two is a real and historical one.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:28 PM   #22
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Its a good thing that this UHDR came to be after the Nuremberg Trials.

Or we could have enjoyed the rehabilitation attempts of the following.


Martin Bormann, Hans Frank, Wilhelm Frick, Hermann Göring, Alfred Jodl, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Wilhelm Keitel, Joachim von Ribbentrop, Alfred Rosenberg, Fritz Sauckel, all executed by
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:42 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Goat View Post
Its a good thing that this UHDR came to be after the Nuremberg Trials.

Or we could have enjoyed the rehabilitation attempts of the following.


Martin Bormann, Hans Frank, Wilhelm Frick, Hermann Göring, Alfred Jodl, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Wilhelm Keitel, Joachim von Ribbentrop, Alfred Rosenberg, Fritz Sauckel, all executed by
Not at all. As I understand it, there's nothing in the UHDR that says (a) rehabilitation is a possibility or necessity or (b) people can't be punished. It just puts limits on the power of the state, for the reasons stated above.

And anyway, the USSR didn't sign up to the UHDR. Stalin was all in favour of mass executions of the German officers. So it's nice that unrestrained execution has friends across the political spectrum, from Communists to Nazis. Churchill said something like he'd rather be hanged himself than ratify such a bloodbath.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:23 PM   #24
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My .02 from 16 years as a police officer......... it depends upon the crime. It also depends upon the sentence. You can't compare serial murderers, child rapists, etc to ponzi scheme grand masters or tax evasion offenders.

I lean toward rehabilitation -- however, it has to be spent on someone who will actually benefit from it. Child molesters for example? There is no amount of rehab that will "cure" them. They are better taken care of with a quick round to the skull. Sadly, we have to be more civilized than that.

If you are in prison for life, for a horrific crime, then by all means, lets make it uncomfortable. I'm really ok with that. But then begins the slippery slope of defining "horrific", etc.

I honestly can't give an answer. For me, it absolutely depends upon the specific crime committed.
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Sorry, but in my opinion, this doesn't happen. The really violent offender does not rehabilitate. These are the people that Gasp deals with daily in a maximum security prison. They do not value human life. They have very few morals, if any. For these people the only real deterrent is the death penalty. I dealt with many in my career. People who had commited multiple murders, aggravated battery/robbery or sex offenses with absolutely no remorse. They simply don't see life the way the rest of us do.

The others, violators of property crimes, ie. theft, burglary.., can be rehabilitated but only if the punishment is severe enough to make them want to not go back. The way it is in most U.S. prisons, it's just an occupational hazard for them to get caught. The do minimal time and have decent living conditions until they get out and go back to their old ways immediately.

If I had my way, anyone convicted and sentenced to life in prison would immediately be put on a "involuntary organ donor list". As soon as matches came up for them, their organs would be harvested and distributed to the society they violated. Why should society continue to pay for the housing with no hope of rehab.?

I cannot speak for Gasper, but anyone who has experience dealing with these type of people will probably agree. After 25+ years in law enforcement, the last 19 as Detective, I've seen the worst society can offer and they walk the streets amoung us because of the flaws in the system.
I feel the same as the these two. There is no rehabilitation for these criminals. I am referring to the predators and not the one that has committed involuntary manslaughter, self defense homicide or the eighteen year old boy with a sixteen year old girlfriend. As Ryano said, I work in a maximum security facility, the worst of the worst in Illinois. They are here for violent crimes against society and with in these walls. They are serial killers, serial rapist, murders, sexual predators against the young and old....I can go on. These individuals are a waste of life and will never serve any purpose in society. I am superior to them because I do value the life of my fellow man. They do not deserve the fundamental rights.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:32 PM   #25
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Not at all. As I understand it, there's nothing in the UHDR that says (a) rehabilitation is a possibility or necessity or (b) people can't be punished. It just puts limits on the power of the state, for the reasons stated above.
I was just trying to be a smarty pants,

I do think there is a huge difference between the evil of the nazi's atrocities and the execution of a violent offender convicted by a jury of his or hers peers.

What I think should really be done is to throw away the key and let them rot away in their cells for twenty three hours a day. Its less expensive.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:41 PM   #26
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I was just trying to be a smarty pants,

I do think there is a huge difference between the evil of the nazi's atrocities and the execution of a violent offender convicted by a jury of his or hers peers.

What I think should really be done is to throw away the key and let them rot away in their cells for twenty three hours a day. Its less expensive.
A .223 round cost less then a buck. Just saying......
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:43 PM   #27
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A .223 round cost less then a buck. Just saying......
If only it wear that simple.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:59 PM   #28
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I feel the same as the these two. There is no rehabilitation for these criminals. I am referring to the predators and not the one that has committed involuntary manslaughter, self defense homicide or the eighteen year old boy with a sixteen year old girlfriend. As Ryano said, I work in a maximum security facility, the worst of the worst in Illinois. They are here for violent crimes against society and with in these walls. They are serial killers, serial rapist, murders, sexual predators against the young and old....I can go on. These individuals are a waste of life and will never serve any purpose in society. I am superior to them because I do value the life of my fellow man. They do not deserve the fundamental rights of any person.
OK, so that's clear enough for the people in your facility. So what are your thoughts on the others you mentioned - let's take a 21 year old with a history of assault, no murders, some theft, no education, zero prospects. Out of the two options I presented, which do you believe would work best? If he's in a brutal and deprived environment, does that make him worse and destroy any chance of him ever improving? Or is it the deterrent he needs to keep him from reoffending?
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:16 PM   #29
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I have zero issues with such a person getting some type of real life skill training on his first offense/incarceration.
I do have an issue though with that individual re-offending and returning to prison and going to college free of charge and earning numerous degrees as they did in the nineties in Illinois. Since then Illinois has past legislation preventing this. I believe that in the lower security institutions that an offender can receive HVAC, auto mechanics and other vocational styles of training.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:20 PM   #30
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IMO we should divide prisons differently than by locale and security level. we should have 1 time offender's prisons that are rehabilitational and 2 or more offender's prison that is very minimal in amenities and cost.

that system would deter criminals from repeat offenses, i think, knowing after that first time there's no 2nd chance.

it is important to note that this is just a philosophical idea and not literal, because the first glaring issue that comes to mind is determining if certain offenses qualify as "bad" enough for the second type of facility, no matter how many offenses. i won't go into a list of those offenses, but you know... the guys locked up in masks and kept away from other inmates.
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