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Old 03-22-2012, 11:38 AM   #11
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I think there is a gap here that some people forget. Real bodybuilding is war. By "real" I mean going through the intense cutting battles that Rich and Emeka have to deal with.

To build muscle you really don't need much. Food, heavy weights, dedication, etc. Keeping that muscle while cutting is an art form. Go to a local show and see how few bodybuilders are ripped to shreds. It's not easy. Not at all.

Those that master the art need every tool available, and often find that "x" works even though it is run down on forums. For example, many natural bodybuilders I know use a legal fat burner. (not all, but many) Yet you will find wave after wave of forum posts laughing at people who use fat burners.

Point here being competition level bodybuilding is all about precision. Lobliner is battling it out with guys who don't compete because they are on different sides of the fence. Lobliner knows precision. Dude is ripped! I've seen him in person.

But on the other side are guys that have built muscle, but have never went through what Lobliner goes through. They didn't need BCAAs or anything else to build "some" muscle, so they position Lobliner as a shill.

I think we need to filter these debates through the proper lens. Most anyone can build muscle without using rocket surgery. Very few can get insanely shredded while keeping that muscle. Most fail to get shredded, or they lose too much muscle.

A lot of industry debates are like this. Some (not all, not many, some) advanced lifters seeing things required for advanced lifters, but that may not be required for average people who don't want to be bodybuilders, and beginners thinking all beginner principles apply forever and ever to all lifters at all levels and goals.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:44 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
I have stumbled on a war on going between several parties in BBing. The Hodge Twins, Lobliner, No Bullshit bodybuilding( Ian Mcarthy) and others. I am going to bring up things that Ian claims and get your opinions.

1. Eating immediatley Post workout is bull. Stated, you never come close to depleting your glycogen therefore you dont need carbs PWO, you cant spike your insulin to be anabolic only anti catabolic unless injected. As long as you have Protein within 24 hours your good to go.

2. Glycemic Index in Bull

3. Carb is a Carb( IIFYM)- He claims no matter what a carb source is a carb source, whether its a poptart or a yam its the same thing. He eats grass fed beef, so if a carb is a carb wouldnt that apply to the other macronutrients?

4.BCAA's are bull Saying there effect is grossly exaggerated and was over hyped by Lobliner to make money.

theres a few to get the ball rolling
1. Eating post workout isn't about replenishing glycogen its about capitalizing on a known window of greater protein synthesis. Protein taken in after a workout (up to and hour) is better utilized in muscles.

2. Glycemic index is a measure of a foods effect on blood sugar. Not sure how this qualifies as bull.

3. Carbs my be carbs when broken down into glucose. Lets think this through a candy bar has almost no vitamins and minerals. You cannot tell me eating a vegetable salad is not better for the body than a candy bar get real.

4.The effect is hyped, yes. Certain aminos specifically leucine has shown some great effects in protein synthesis when taken post workout.


*** All supplements are hyped to sell. If your going to pay $60 for a product you should spend 5 mins on google scholar and see if there is any research with it working as claimed in HUMANS.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:50 AM   #13
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In my humble opinion after competitive bodybuilding with bulks and cutting, I have found for me personaly:

BCAA’s if you get over 3 grams Leucine are very helpful between meals and intra workouts.

Eating post workout taking digestion rate and time nutrients truly hit the system, a shake/smoothie right after workout has helped me a lot. (As soon as you eat don’t been BAM it’s in your system, many things need to happen before the nutrients truly enter your system.)

In carb counting, yes a carb is a carb. As far as how they affect your system NO not the same.

The index I have found to very helpful in timing what carb at what time. As a competitive bodybuilder, its 80% knowing your body and nutrition. This means learning how your body reacts to what foods and learning the timing of them and why, for the best results both in bulk and cutting.


In the lifting world, so many threads are open ended, loaded and leading to get the outcome in their favor and make them look right.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I think there is a gap here that some people forget. Real bodybuilding is war. By "real" I mean going through the intense cutting battles that Rich and Emeka have to deal with.

To build muscle you really don't need much. Food, heavy weights, dedication, etc. Keeping that muscle while cutting is an art form. Go to a local show and see how few bodybuilders are ripped to shreds. It's not easy. Not at all.

Those that master the art need every tool available, and often find that "x" works even though it is run down on forums. For example, many natural bodybuilders I know use a legal fat burner. (not all, but many) Yet you will find wave after wave of forum posts laughing at people who use fat burners.

Point here being competition level bodybuilding is all about precision. Lobliner is battling it out with guys who don't compete because they are on different sides of the fence. Lobliner knows precision. Dude is ripped! I've seen him in person.

But on the other side are guys that have built muscle, but have never went through what Lobliner goes through. They didn't need BCAAs or anything else to build "some" muscle, so they position Lobliner as a shill.

I think we need to filter these debates through the proper lens. Most anyone can build muscle without using rocket surgery. Very few can get insanely shredded while keeping that muscle. Most fail to get shredded, or they lose too much muscle.

A lot of industry debates are like this. Some (not all, not many, some) advanced lifters seeing things required for advanced lifters, but that may not be required for average people who don't want to be bodybuilders, and beginners thinking all beginner principles apply forever and ever to all lifters at all levels and goals.
I agree with that you say here. And I'll add that if the BCAA use is most critical during a cut, then people's statements should mention that.

"BCAAs are an essential in bodybuilding" and "BCAAs are an essential in bodybuilding for support and recovery when cutting" are two very different statements.

One could be a shill. The other is a precise statement.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
1. Eating immediatley Post workout is bull. Stated, you never come close to depleting your glycogen therefore you dont need carbs PWO, you cant spike your insulin to be anabolic only anti catabolic unless injected. As long as you have Protein within 24 hours your good to go.

There are many issues brought up with PWO meals, one being the addition or exclusion of fats, let alone the timing of the meal; I don't think anyone will ever agree or have any definite conclusions in regard to either argument. If it seems to be working for a person, then it makes sense to continue eating directly afterwards; personally, I'm usually hungry then anyway, so eating makes sense whether it's considered to be important where muscle growth is concerned or not.

2. Glycemic Index in Bull

IMHO, Glycemic Load is more important than the GI taken alone; it's possible to eat the exact same GI by eating less of a high GI food and more of a lesser GI food, so 2 foods with a different GI can have the same GL if taken in the appropriate quantities.

3. Carb is a Carb( IIFYM)- He claims no matter what a carb source is a carb source, whether its a poptart or a yam its the same thing. He eats grass fed beef, so if a carb is a carb wouldnt that apply to the other macronutrients?

As already mentioned, yes, they may be carbs, equal in calories, but that's as far as the equality of carbs go.

4.BCAA's are bull Saying there effect is grossly exaggerated and was over hyped by Lobliner to make money.

Grossly exaggerated, sort of indicates that they have a beneficial effect just that that benefit has been exaggerated.

theres a few to get the ball rolling
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:50 PM   #16
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Wassup Guys!!

Sorry i'm late to the party but thanks for all the kind words

Let's debate!!! lol

First off, BBing is a VERY relative sport. Each aspect is relative to the BBer's own unique set of genetics. There no universal right or wrong, only what works or doesn't for that individual.

Also, no matter what people may believe or say, facts are facts. Doesn't mean that those facts will hold 100% true to the individual but science and research always gets my vote.

So let's start with the first topic.

Eating immediately Post workout is bull.
This, IMO, holds some truth to it but not enough to make me OCD about the issue. After training your body IS somewhat depleted. Doesn't have to be completely drained to be depleted. It is in need of nutrients. I emphasize nutrients because like Steve said, give me a shake and i'm good until i can prepare my meal. I'm the same way.

I do believe that you body will make better use of Fast digesting carbs PWO and upon waking because carbs basically boils down to energy for the body. This is my main and only reason for carbs PWO.

It hard to believe that the functionality and complexity of a very diverse hormone such as insulin can be completely understood. And not only understood but also taught how to manipulate optimally for any and every individual who chooses to do so.

And since we are talking BBing, i don't believe very many BBer's, despite most being very intellectual beings, have the patience to make it past the very first line of "Insulin is a hormone, produced by the pancreas, which is central to regulating carbohydrate and fat metabolism in the body" or "Insulin is what your body needs to use the food you eat for energy."

Does anyone else find it weird that the topic of insulin spike is mainly discussed in BBing Seems like something so profound should be discussed and used more widely, IMO.

There was a guy by the name of Isaac Newton who said "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction" Why am i bringing this up? Because no one really considers the opposite reaction of a momentum shift such as spiking your insulin. It's called Sugar Crash. The “crash” one feels is due to the rapid increase and subsequent decline of blood sugar in the body system as one begins and ceases consumption of high-sugar foods. More insulin than is actually needed is produced in response to the large, rapid ingestion of sugary foods.

Want to know the symptoms of a sugar crash? Want to hear it, here it go! lol

A crash is usually felt within four hours or less of heavy carbohydrate consumption. Symptoms include:

Confusion and difficulty concentrating on daily tasks
Anxiety
Light-headedness
Fatigue
Headache
Irritability

And since most BBer's spike there insulin immediately following a workout and their following meal in some cases is a 0 carb meal, you are at risk of the above listed symptoms.

Maybe that explains the attitude of many BBer's that i've been talking about lately, but thats another topic

Thoughts?
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:45 PM   #17
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First off, BBing is a VERY relative sport. Each aspect is relative to the BBer's own unique set of genetics. There no universal right or wrong, only what works or doesn't for that individual.
That has more truth in it than 99% of the crap we read on the internet.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:41 PM   #18
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Isn't Ian McCarthy skinny and weak? Why does anyone care what he says about being muscular, big and/or strong?
If at some point in ones life(past or present) one has not ever been either cut, ripped, shredded, big, muscular, strong, huge, yoked, swole, buff, powerful or any other word you want to use for a successful weightlifter, they are not qualified to be telling others who have been or are either cut, ripped, shredded, big, muscular, strong, huge, yoked, swole, buff, or powerful that they are wrong and should probably just be ignored.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:13 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
2. Glycemic Index in Bull
How was this conclusion reached?

I mean the GI is a "concept", which to me means it is an idea, but has recieved extensive developmental research since 1980. It has been tested, and tested, over and over again improving accuracy over time.

I wouldn't say it is bull lol (always wanted to use that smiley). It does hold some truths and importance.

The University of Sydney thrives in the advancement of the the GI. Even the ADA (American Diabetes Association) supports the GI. Even in the support of the GI, the ADA has the basic understanding that the GI does not hold completely true to everyone and although they support the GI they believe that everyone should make their own custom method that works best for them.

So like i stated above, yes it is based on a concept, however it shouldn't be considered bull.

Thoughts?
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