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Old 12-16-2011, 08:53 PM   #51
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[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.
-James Madison
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:58 PM   #52
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I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.
-Thomas Jefferson,
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:13 PM   #53
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"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Ben Franklin, 1766
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:15 PM   #54
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Tom Paine
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:18 PM   #55
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Repeal that [welfare] law, and you will soon see a change in their manners. St. Monday and St. Tuesday, will soon cease to be holidays. Six days shalt thou labor, though one of the old commandments long treated as out of date, will again be looked upon as a respectable precept; industry will increase, and with it plenty among the lower people; their circumstances will mend, and more will be done for their happiness by inuring them to provide for themselves, than could be done by dividing all your estates among them.
--Benjamin Franklin,
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:38 PM   #56
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SEC Charges Ex-Fannie, Freddie CEOs With Fraud | Fox News

Where is the ows uproar.
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:07 AM   #57
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Default ten percent of New Yorkers pay 71% of the taxes

Hey, 99 Percenters, You Call This 'Fair'? | Fox News
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:42 AM   #58
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You are quoting a comedian as facts? Plus its on Fox fake news so......
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:35 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat View Post
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Tom Paine
Quote-mining is fun, isn't it?

I'm not really sure what this one has to do with the current context, seeing as this was Paine's address sometime around the Battle of Brandywine. He's clearly talking about the need to defend beliefs, rather than anything to do with supporting the poor.

I'm very interested on Tom Paine as one of the architects of American thought, and, of course, the French Revolution. If you hold your ear to the ground, you can hear a kind of hum - that's Tom spinning in his grave, wherever he is (I think I'm right in saying that his body was lost) as a result of appearing in this thread, and appearing to support a position that he would have abhorred. Paine, in fact, argued vigorously in The Rights of Man for taxes to help the poor, as well as for a minimum working wage. He also admired the quakers for their charity and philanthropy (apart from the connection to their religious beliefs). His brand of deism was all to do with stripping out the oppression of common people by religion and instituting Jesus's central moral message of looking after everyone.

As for the other founding fathers - I'm less sure of my ground on them. I do know, however, that the 'blame the poor as authors of their own ills' is a relatively new phenomenon. If you take the major moral systems - Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism - they all have the idea of taxation to support the poor. And it isn't seen as a burden, it's just seen as the right thing to do.
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:19 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Quote-mining is fun, isn't it?
When I was young, we were taught these principles. Not now. when I question the young about the Founding Fathers, they are ignorant.

I am all for charity, but to force upon hard working responsible people is wrong.
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