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Old 11-05-2011, 05:25 PM   #11
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It must be done in THIS order...
1. Training
2. Diet
3. Rest

So I see diet as 33% of the whole recipe.
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
My point is that if you aren't training hard, your food intake is merely calories. It may be healthy calories, but it's just calories.
Yep I agree, I don't place nutrition nearly as important as training. Nutrition as far as I'm concerned for the majority of people is the easy part, sitting down and eating 3 squares and some snacks isn't hard. Despite common thinking on the subject gaining for beginners/intermediates doesn't need to be a hell of a lot more complicated than that.

On the other hand, how many people do you see in the gym (outside of M&B) consistently working hard on the basics? Unless you're in an exceptional gym the answer will be none to few.
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:54 PM   #13
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You eat too much and train too little, you'll just get tubby.
You train too much and eat too little, you'll hit a brick wall. One begets the other, pretty simple IMO.
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Excuse my self-indulgence but I had to post a thought that came to mind this morning:

Diet is only 90% of the equation if you are training hard enough. If your workouts are sub-par diet is approximately zero percent of the equation.
This statement is false when left by itself.

Diet and Training are forever the married couple; One or the other can effect the "state of progress" on ones personal goal.

However, I have some trouble with this quoted statement--when left on its own merit, when not considering some individual particulars, and how "equation is being defined and what context "equation" is being utilized.

1. Beginner and Novice: Subpar in what context as it relates to the position of the person (for example, a beginner, novice) and their goal?

A beginner can get away with a subpar program because the stimulus being applied (even subpar) is new, and the stimulus threshold rises of above what the body has grown accustomed to-dependent on the state of the subpar program (or effort being applied).

In some cases, even a subpar diet and a subpar training program (combined, dependent), can bring results (albeit short lived) to the novice or beginner.

This thought process is only inline with defining "equation" as one's personal goal. Its sort of like the body says "Oh, sh@t!", and over compensates, for a short period of time. Though, the aforementioned comments are very short in relation to one's long term goals, it does, nonetheless, make the quoted statement false--to a degree.

2. Individual Particulars. For example: Some individuals have a medical necessity to lose tissue, combined with the inability to exercise (or exercise strenuously), but are still put on weight loss induced dietary perimeters--from some educated professionals (assuming quality profressionals here).

Though the exercise activity can be subpar (as it relates to bringing more optimal results if allowed to work harder/more strenuous), "tissue" loss will be seen even with subpar training being applied. Again, this personal particular can make the quoted statement, false. In this limited example, we see that diet (keeping things equal) is still bringing in potential "tissue" loss, though activity is subpar because of medical limitations.

3. If the context is: "Equation of life"

A certain quantity of calories (and not necessarily pointing to the quality/contents of these calories) are needed to sustain certain life properties, daily life activities, whether one adds in a training program or not.

Out of the two, only two are required: Food and water. Training is not required in life (to the average healthy), but may be required for improvement in health/strength in others (but still is personally optional), and added in by others due to personal goal wants (but still is optional).

We should always strive to work hard in the gym. We should always try understand what we need (personally for our diets), but its not "neccessarily" these that prevent us from reaching our goals. It actually comes from the beast within and (IMO) NEEDS MORE ATTENTION THAT IT RECEIVES ON FORUMS:

The battle in our heads as we live life that that prevents us from being conistent in the things we are educated in, but prevents us from performing them.

And, understanding how (diet) and (training) effects our attitude/personal internal feelings--dependent on how these are carried out.
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Last edited by Chillen; 11-06-2011 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:56 PM   #15
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Eat like you just sruvived a famine
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Old 11-06-2011, 05:00 PM   #16
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Austin hit the nail on the head.

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Old 11-06-2011, 06:31 PM   #17
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You're making one big, but false assumption...that people are training hard enough and progressing. Most aren't.

Quote:
A beginner can get away with a subpar program because the stimulus being applied
Sure they can...no one is arguing that. They most certainly will gain if they are training hard enough. But most aren't. That's why I made my initial statement.

My statement wasn't to the 5% that are actually working hard. It was to the 95% who go OCD on diet structure but train like a limp noodle.

No matter how hard you diet, if you train like a noodle you will fail. This is my point, and I don't see why this is up for debate?

I see it dozens of times a week. Week in and week out I deal with trainees that structure calorie intake but don't progress for 2 straight years. There are armies of trainees like this. It doesn't matter how meticulously you count calories or macros, it's just food if you aren't progressing.

I deal with dozens upon dozens of trainees each week that have diets so precise it makes my head spin, but then I check their training logs and they haven't made any substantial progress in the gym in a long time.

I stand by my statement. 95% of people on random forums don't train hard enough, period. It doesn't matter what they eat. They aren't getting bigger, nor are they getting stronger.

In fact, "hard training" is so rare that spotting someone who has experienced beginner muscle gains is like spotting an albino buck. It happens, but not very often.

We don't have a lot of beginners here at MAB so we don't see it as much here, but on many lifting forums spotting beginner gains is very rare. I hope everyone understands this statement isn't focused on anyone here.
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Last edited by BendtheBar; 11-06-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 06:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
You're making one big, but false assumption...that people are training hard enough and progressing. Most aren't.
That point becomes obvious when people state that they have done a routine as set and then state that "it wasn't taxing enough, I felt I could do more sets" etc...which means they had not selected the correct weightload for the exercise(s); of course, this may or may not be applicable to a pure beginner routine, though even then they would feel it if they selected the correct weightload and did not underestimate what they should be using load wise.

It's a common response as well, highlighting that people are not training as hard as they think they are...sometimes, however, I also feel that the above response is ego based, in some cases.
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:05 PM   #19
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All I want is for people to train harder so they can maximize the effort of their meticulous diet. That's all.

All I am trying to do is help lurkers wandering through who have no idea that they are not pushing hard enough; maximizing every set.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
All I want is for people to train harder so they can maximize the effort of their meticulous diet. That's all.

All I am trying to do is help lurkers wandering through who have no idea that they are not pushing hard enough; maximizing every set.
So true, I can say from experience.

But once that switch is flicked, and you realise if the weight is not geting heavier you are not getting any bigger, you never look back.

I personally thin the problem is that there are very few 'true' guideposts for begginers to follow.
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