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Old 10-17-2011, 08:24 AM   #1
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Talking Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation Training... OR the other kind?

Hi all,

This parallels a line of inquiry I am making in an another thread, but I thought it was a significant enough element to discuss by itself.

I am talking about (in plain english this time) the concept of training cooperative muscle groups versus opposing muscle groups in the one routine.

I'd like to know which method is the more commonly used. Do you press/push only on one training day, and pull/row only on another? Or do you combine pressing and pulling into the one routine? What are the reasons behind doing it one way or the other?
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PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet

Last edited by Abaddon; 10-17-2011 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:39 AM   #2
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A lot of this has to do with outlook for me.

For example...When I was deep in the bodybuilder end back was always placed on it's own pulling day, far away from bench press. When I began to explore powerlifting I learned just how involved back training was with pressing, and just how important it was to train an opposing movement in the same plane. I also learned I could train back more frequently, and that it didn't fit in well with posterior chain work because of time limitations.

So back is both a cooperative and opposing, depending on the outlook.

In a pure bodybuilding sense it's not uncommon to work triceps with back or biceps with chest. Some people like to work arms when they are fresh, and I see merits in this approach.
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Last edited by BendtheBar; 10-17-2011 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:49 AM   #3
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I'm the same btb...

Bodybuilders seem to work muscle groups whereas powerlifters work movements... when someone aska me what i'm working today i say bench instead of chest, tris, lats, and rear delts. Anything that doesnt particularly fit one of the big three- calves, bis, is accesory
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:00 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Disciple X View Post
I'm the same btb...

Bodybuilders seem to work muscle groups whereas powerlifters work movements... when someone aska me what i'm working today i say bench instead of chest, tris, lats, and rear delts. Anything that doesnt particularly fit one of the big three- calves, bis, is accesory
Your statement is nail on head for me when I am advising a novice. One of my pet pieces of advice is: train movements not body parts. Even for pure bodybuilding I don't want a novice trying to turn a bench press into a chest isolation movement. But I won't derail the thread...
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:05 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
A lot of this has to do with outlook for me.

For example...When I was deep in the bodybuilder end back was always placed on it's own pulling day, far away from bench press. When I began to explore powerlifting I learned just how involved back training was with pressing, and just how important it was to train an opposing movement in the same plane. I also learned I would train back more frequently, and that it didn't fit in well with posterior chain work.

So back is both a cooperative and opposing, depending on the outlook.

In a pure bodybuilding sense it's not uncommon to work triceps with back or biceps with chest. Some people like to work arms when they are fresh, and I see merits in this approach.
It sounds like the push only/pull only thing is used most commonly by bodybuilders. SO it's not what I'm after. Looks like I need to just scrap the approach.

Back to square one.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
It sounds like the push only/pull only thing is used most commonly by bodybuilders. SO it's not what I'm after. Looks like I need to just scrap the approach.

Back to square one.
Check out the Westside template to get an idea on how groupings are generally done in many strength building programs. Ignore the DE/ME for now and just take a peak at groupings:

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/art...-template.html

Quote:
Sunday Dynamic Effort Bench

Dynamic Bench Press
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back


Monday Max Effort Squat/DL

Max Effort Exercise
Hamstrings
Low Back
Abs


Wednesday Max Effort Bench Press

Max Effort Exercise
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back


Friday Dynamic Squat/DL

Dynamic Squat
Hamstrings
Low Back
Abs
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Check out the Westside template to get an idea on how groupings are generally done in many strength building programs. Ignore the DE/ME for now and just take a peak at groupings:

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/art...-template.html
Thanks Steve.

Now to squish these into 3 perfectly balanced routines.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
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Old 10-17-2011, 10:00 AM   #8
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I train movements not muscle groups so I will do pulling movements as assistance on press days.

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