Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > General > General Board
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

General Board You can talk about anything here. Life, sports, rants, whatever.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-16-2011, 10:14 AM   #11
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
I am happy to reduce the volume of some exercises and increase the volume of others.
Good. More volume on the stuff that matters, is what I'm getting at.

Spart's been following a 4 way power split I've used with myself and a few other guys. He's on week 4-5 and continually making progress, he's just beaten his old Bench record quite comfortably and his form is feeling more secure on Deadlifts. The fact that he's progressing with such a high level of volume will allow him to *peak* his strength all the better. The idea, at least at the beginning, is to do a hell of a lot of volume on the main lifts. That gets you stronger, quickly and comfortable with the exercises.

EDIT - This is something I see a lot throughout with beginners that come through the 'strength' route. A complete lack of volume in the build up phases. They will typically have decent deadiifts, medicore squats but poor pressing and that pretty much stays the same untill they learn how to put the volume in. For all the good that McRobert/Hardgainer/HIT and whatever else did they did a complete disservice by preaching abbreviated routines right from the off to beginners.

When I see routines doing 1 top set of Deadlifts once a week, 1 top set of Benches I can't see how that is going to work long-term, it's soft training to me. You will probably see some minor improvement as your body peaks to show it's strength with such low volume but you'll get stuck fast.

You need to be putting the time in on the basics to get the results you want. Like I said at least 45 minutes of a 90 minute session should be devoted purely to doing set after set of the basic lifts. To that end, there needs to be much more space in your routine for a considerable amount of volume on the lifts you want to improve on.

I'm not angry while typing this, but you asked a question and I've followed your log long enough to care about your progress. Within the years you've been lifting and the bodyweight that you are I'd expect your ceiling of strength to be much higher but you're slowing yourself down with these routines.

Last edited by Fazc; 10-16-2011 at 10:20 AM.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 10-16-2011, 10:19 AM   #12
LtL
SHFW
Max Brawn
Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100
Activity: 17% Activity: 17% Activity: 17%
 
LtL's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 12,014
Training Exp: 5 years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Deadlifts
Fav Supp: Endurance BCAA
Reputation: 455740
LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!
Default

Ab's I agree with Fazc: too much little stuff and not enough big. 4 sets of triceps pushdowns? Why not close grip bench or another compound movement? Get strong all over but make sure it's relevant to your end goal of SM.

LtL
LtL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 10:30 AM   #13
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,959
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

Thanks to Steve, I'm just going to post this so I have something I (and others) can alter as we go

ME Lower
Deadlifts 5 sets
Front Box Squats 4 sets
Hamstring Curls 3 sets
Shrugs 3 sets
Static Holds 3 sets

Dynamic Press + Arms
One arm snatch 2 sets
Overhead press 4 sets
Bench variation 4 sets
DB curls 4 sets
Tricep pushdowns 4 sets

Dynamic Pull
Deadlifts 4 sets (light)
Seated row 4 sets
One arm rows 3 sets
Lateral pull downs 4 sets
Face pulls 4 sets
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
The idea, at least at the beginning, is to do a hell of a lot of volume on the main lifts. That gets you stronger, quickly and comfortable with the exercises.

EDIT - This is something I see a lot throughout with beginners that come through the 'strength' route. A complete lack of volume in the build up phases. They will typically have decent deadiifts, medicore squats but poor pressing and that pretty much stays the same untill they learn how to put the volume in. For all the good that McRobert/Hardgainer/HIT and whatever else did they did a complete disservice by preaching abbreviated routines right from the off to beginners.

You need to be putting the time in on the basics to get the results you want. Like I said at least 45 minutes of a 90 minute session should be devoted purely to doing set after set of the basic lifts. To that end, there needs to be much more space in your routine for a considerable amount of volume on the lifts you want to improve on.

I'm not angry while typing this, but you asked a question and I've followed your log long enough to care about your progress. Within the years you've been lifting and the bodyweight that you are I'd expect your ceiling of strength to be much higher but you're slowing yourself down with these routines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtL View Post
Ab's I agree with Fazc: too much little stuff and not enough big. 4 sets of triceps pushdowns? Why not close grip bench or another compound movement? Get strong all over but make sure it's relevant to your end goal of SM.
LtL
Ok, ok I get the idea guys.
I discovered a little while ago that pretty much all the benching I do at home is some version of CGBP because my bench is a POS; the uprights are right where my hands should be.

But if you think benching multiple times per week - in addition to deadlifting and squatting - is good then I'm all for that. Please keep going with the ideas guys.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet

Last edited by Abaddon; 10-16-2011 at 10:35 AM.
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 10:32 AM   #14
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,816
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

To piggyback on what Fazc said, one of the real keys to increasing my pressing strength was volume. I did a truckload of overhead and bench pressing volume as a beginner and intermediate.

When I see someone who is struggling with bench my first thought is often...more volume. Odds are they are not doing much. For example, I could never make great progress on a Wendler's 531 bench or OHP as a beginner or early intermediate. I would need to add in more volume as assistance.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 10-16-2011 at 10:34 AM.
BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 10:42 AM   #15
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,959
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

This sounds like I actually need to reprise my old chest and shoulders template... something like 12 sets of just bench press (3 variations) and I was even doing flys at the end, originally.

So this brings to light another mainstay of my training style: am I wrong in thinking 20 total working sets is a good thing?

I've never trained for more that 70-75 minutes, even when I was an amateur BBer 10 years ago.

What about the effect rising cortisol levels have? I understand that a 90 minute routine isn't favourable for this reason. But that could be more well-worn hokum I've bought into...

And to clarify volume; more sets? More reps? More variations of the lift, or more of the same? Could you give me an outline?
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 10:48 AM   #16
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
But if you think benching multiple times per week - in addition to deadlifting and squatting - I'm all for that. Please keep going with the ideas guys.
Either that or just putting in more volume. When you say '5 sets' you know that's not really 5 sets, that's 1 top set and 4 warm ups! When I'm writing 5 sets down here I mean 5 work sets of the same weight. Warm ups are not counted.

For Press day, say on Monday:

Standing Press, could use the log - 5 singles followed by 5 sets of 5
Cable Row - 5 sets of 5
Close Grip Bench - 5 sets of 5
Cable Shrugs - 5 x 12

Typically if someone wants to get stronger on the Deadlift, I have them Deadlifting a whole lot. For you this might mean this on Tuesday.

Snatch - 5 singles/doubles, gets you warmed up for the Deads
Deadlift - 5 singles
Partial Deadlifts - 5 sets of 5
Front Squat - 5 sets of 5
Heavy Abs - 5 sets of 5

That's a Deadlift workout. If you want to back down the weight and do some rows after that, feel free. But if you work that hard enough, your grip, your hamstrings, upper back and everything will be done. What else could you possible do on that day that wouldn't already be covered?

Then perhaps on Thursday you could do some more Benching.

Bench Press - 5 singles followed by 5 sets of 5 back offs
Cable Rows - 5 sets of 5
Incline or Close Grip - 5 sets of 5
Cable Shrugs (rearward shrugs, they are awesome) - 5 sets of 5

Then go ahead and do your events on Saturday.

Something like that, is much more like it. The basics are emphasised, the accessory work gets done when you have the energy but it's not the focus. Get the volume in.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 10:52 AM   #17
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,959
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

ME Lower
Deadlifts 8 sets
Front Box Squats 6 sets
Hamstring Curls 3 sets
Shrugs 3 sets
Static Holds 2 sets

Dynamic Press + Arms
One arm snatch 2 sets
Overhead press 7 sets
Bench variation 7 sets
DB curls 3 sets
CGBP 3 sets

Dynamic Pull
Deadlifts 8 sets (light)
Seated row 4 sets
One arm DB rows 4 sets
Lateral pull downs 3 sets
Face pulls 3 sets

How's this ^ for a 1st draft? I've increased the total working sets for each routine to 22, and I've dropped sets in the small stuff and increased those of the heavy compounds.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet

Last edited by Abaddon; 10-16-2011 at 08:07 PM. Reason: forgot the CGBP
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 06:49 PM   #18
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,959
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

well this died in the ass.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 06:57 PM   #19
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,816
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

It's not dead. Be patient please. We want to help.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2011, 07:00 PM   #20
kitarpyar
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94
Activity: 50% Activity: 50% Activity: 50%
 
kitarpyar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,725
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Reputation: 121110
kitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master member
Default

Interesting discussion here. How much of weekly volume would you recommend for pressing moves (OHP and bench), especially for relative novices? And what sort of %ages to go along with it?

Even if the goal is 1RM, do you see benefits in higher rep sets, just to grease the groove, so to speak? Or turn it around to larger number of sets with lower reps?
kitarpyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
advise, routine


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advise and help. lowery Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 12 06-05-2012 08:46 AM
Dead Lifting with a Hex bar - please advise? Abaddon Powerlifting & Strength Training 4 03-24-2011 08:06 AM
The Pec-Deck: please advise Abaddon General Board 6 03-18-2011 09:15 PM
looking for a new routine strkout35 Powerlifting & Strength Training 14 08-07-2010 11:41 PM
Need a routine Pizza1337 Powerlifting & Strength Training 19 11-15-2009 07:46 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.