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Old 01-19-2010, 10:26 AM   #21
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Skip lifts big, which means big muscles, and i think its quite possible that he is clean. Amzing things can be done with determination, and in my opinion he's clean. I've gotten big without steroids, and i'm continuing to grow.
I'll have to disagree, if you look at the stats.

But welcome to M&B anyways!
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:37 AM   #22
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So are we saying that it's possible to "believe and achive?" That it's possible to get as big as a steroid user with effort?

Then the question becomes, why don't more men climb this mountain then without steroids?
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:10 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by meathead View Post
Skip lifts big, which means big muscles.

Agreed, but only up to a finite point. There is a limit to what can be achieved without exotic supplements

I think its quite possible that he is clean.
I think your wrong

Amazing things can be done with determination.
I agree with this statement in a general sense. In regard to the topic we are discussing, see my previous response

I've gotten big without steroids, and i'm continuing to grow.
Would you supply complete stats, please?
Welcome to the forum. You have made your first post on a topic that really causes a lot of a debate. Not just here, but in the whole community.

I'm not meaning to be a jerk to you, but I do want to state my stance on the subject.

I'm firmly in the camp of classic physique building using natural methods.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:21 AM   #24
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So are we saying that it's possible to "believe and achive?" That it's possible to get as big as a steroid user with effort?

It can be said, but that does not mean it is true. I'm amazed that some people think there are not limits, and that you can keep growing . Allowing for the fact that there are natural limits is not the same thing as having a defeatest attitude.


Then the question becomes, why don't more men climb this mountain then without steroids?

Simple, that mountain cannot be climbed to the summit without using the gear that the other guy is using.
Thats just my opinion.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:36 AM   #25
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Skip lifts big, which means big muscles, and i think its quite possible that he is clean. Amzing things can be done with determination, and in my opinion he's clean. I've gotten big without steroids, and i'm continuing to grow.
Getting reasonably big without roids is possible. Getting to 225 lbs at 5'10" with BF around 5-6% without roids/PH is not.

However, we gotta remember there's multiple definition of "natural" out there. A number of so called bb organizations turn a blind eye to PHs. Its possible that someone could be taking the legal steroids and claim to be natural since they are not banned.

Another question - If an user stops using after he has put on significant size over and above what is naturally possible, (but still continues lifting), 5-6 years down the line will he have whittled down to below his natural limits, or would he be still bigger than his max nattie potential.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:42 AM   #26
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However, we gotta remember there's multiple definition of "natural" out there. A number of so called bb organizations turn a blind eye to PHs. Its possible that someone could be taking the legal steroids and claim to be natural since they are not banned.
As far as I know there is no comparison between a ph and aas
Another question - If an user stops using after he has put on significant size over and above what is naturally possible, (but still continues lifting), 5-6 years down the line will he have whittled down to below his natural limits, or would he be still bigger than his max nattie potential.
There was a study about this a while back pertaining to powerlifters, and i believe it showed that ex users had an advantage over life long nattys
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:44 AM   #27
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AAS is much more effective, that I agree. But is PH worth zilch? This I do not know, although I suspect that a PH user will be at an advantage to a true natty.

Going to the 2nd question, what I am trying to get at is someone who claims natty and seemingly exceeds the natty potential by tens of lbs might have been an ex-user who has been off the AAS cycles long enough to be tested clean in a natty competition.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:48 AM   #28
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AAS is much more effective, that I agree. But is PH worth zilch? This I do not know, although I suspect that a PH user will be at an advantage to a true natty.
I agree
Going to the 2nd question, what I am trying to get at is someone who claims natty and seemingly exceeds the natty potential by tens of lbs might have been an ex-user who has been off the AAS cycles long enough to be tested clean in a natty competition.
That's what im saying, if the line from PL qualities to BB qualities is somewhat linear, then yes it would be an advantage
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:02 PM   #29
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Getting reasonably big without roids is possible. Getting to 225 lbs at 5'10" with BF around 5-6% without roids/PH is not.

However, we gotta remember there's multiple definition of "natural" out there. A number of so called bb organizations turn a blind eye to PHs. Its possible that someone could be taking the legal steroids and claim to be natural since they are not banned.

Another question - If an user stops using after he has put on significant size over and above what is naturally possible, (but still continues lifting), 5-6 years down the line will he have whittled down to below his natural limits, or would he be still bigger than his max nattie potential.
It is hard to retain muscle mass from AAS in the long term. Generally a PCT product is used to up natural test levels after a cycle. But eventually, AAS gains will go away. AAS users get off to allow receptors to repair, etc. But hey don't get off willingly, because they know it's a slippery slope.

I'm not expert on this issue, but I believe my opinions are relatively sound.

But if you're off for 5 to 6 years, the body's natural test levels will prevent you from being a freak. There "might" be some muscle memory at play - but that is speculation, and if it does exist, would be 20 to 25 pounds. Maybe 4 to 5 pounds.

If it were as simple as one big cycle, PCT, get off...then you would see more huge guys in natty shows.

Regarding PHs, most of the guys I've seen on PHs aren't even at their natty limits yet. I've seen a couple of guys who do PHs with testosterone and look bigger then natty limits, but very few maxed natties turn to PHs. Usually they jump to big boy drugs.

I know of a couple of naturals who look 5 to 8 pounds heavier then natty limits, and I wonder if they use PHs. But guys like this are rare.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:10 PM   #30
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Not enough experience or knowledge on the subject...No comment at this time.
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