Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > General > General Board
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

General Board You can talk about anything here. Life, sports, rants, whatever.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-10-2014, 01:47 AM   #1
Davis
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 4,207, Level: 41 Points: 4,207, Level: 41 Points: 4,207, Level: 41
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
Davis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 746
Training Exp: 1 day
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: More deadlifts
Reputation: 54259
Davis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beastDavis is a lifting beast
Default Steroid Make Your Training Worthless?

I see it all the time. Someone is a known steroid user, and people criticize them, and talk like they don't know a thing about training. Or claim that steroids are the ONLY reason a person can lift as much as they do.

Even when talking about the part of the community that juices, some adamantly anti-drug people(Like those who love NASA, which I am a member of) talk horribly about steroid users. As if, since they've never picked up the needle, they are saints and to be admired.

Here's a quick example. I was talking to someone about how I was going to get bench press help from an excellent bench pressed. His response wasn't about how that was a good idea, or how good this guy actually is at benching. No, it was, "Yeah, but he's a 'roid addict." That was it.

I realize that steroids should not be promoted. They're illegal in most places, and they can be dangerous if fallen into the wrong hands. Yes, they certainly do enhance one's abilities. The general population think of steroids as absolute magic because they are ignorant of what steroids are. I understand these things. What I don't understand is, why are there so many people who discredit AAS users? I'm talking gym goers, drug free competitors, etc. If you're against a user in a competition, that sucks. It isn't fair for you, but those who I know use, work harder than anyone I know who downs their achievements.

So, why the hatred against steroid users? Is it just jealousy? We can talk "cheating" all we want, but in most cases, those who I personally know who claim a user is "cheating" aren't competing or trying very hard themselves. So I'm just curious what the big deal is to people that athletes use drugs.

To further the discussion, I only seem to hear most of the complaints about non-pro users. So a person using on the amateur level is to be dogged, while a professional is still worthy of praise? (Unless it's baseball. Then everyone seems to be up in arms)
Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-10-2014, 02:59 AM   #2
Dray
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 10,100, Level: 67 Points: 10,100, Level: 67 Points: 10,100, Level: 67
Activity: 6% Activity: 6% Activity: 6%
 

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: tldu
Posts: 4,140
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: bench press
Reputation: 245355
Dray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master memberDray is a master member
Default

Ignorance, often. I know that when I started this lifting thing, I was in danger of letting that very ignorance guide me in my judgements of others. No, I haven't been doing this for long, but even closer to when I started, is what I mean.

A feeling of disillusionment, or even betrayal, when discovering just how many people *do* use PEDs...

And yes, in some cases, insecurity or frustration regarding one's own performance or results, when stacked against what these "inhuman monsters" do, seemingly as a matter of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis View Post
So a person using on the amateur level is to be dogged, while a professional is still worthy of praise? (Unless it's baseball. Then everyone seems to be up in arms)
Not just baseball. This is the other big thing: People are so used to hearing or reading about sports competitors (e.g., @ the olympics, etc.) "cheating" with PEDs, that whenever anyone uses them, they must also be cheating. Doing the wrong thing, and all that.


And... the only other thing that comes to mind is a broad distaste/disgust re: "junkies", in society in general. If people associate PED use with being a junkie (yeah, needles 'n all, amirite), I don't think it will help with dat dere image...
__________________
My training log

Last edited by Dray; 02-10-2014 at 03:02 AM.
Dray is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 05:48 AM   #3
fenrisulfr
Peanut Butter Member
Max Brawn
Points: 10,634, Level: 68 Points: 10,634, Level: 68 Points: 10,634, Level: 68
Activity: 25% Activity: 25% Activity: 25%
 
fenrisulfr's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,920
Training Exp: 4
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Chicken breast
Reputation: 353261
fenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite memberfenrisulfr is an elite member
Default

Recently watched bigger stronger faster. It was a good flick but they bring up great points, in general people think steroids are bad and dangerous yet everybody romanticizes steroids in the media, top level athletes, and actors.
fenrisulfr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 08:21 AM   #4
Soldier
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78
Activity: 89% Activity: 89% Activity: 89%
 
Soldier's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Hood, Tx
Posts: 4,154
Training Exp: On and off for 17 years.
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Bosu kickback pistols
Fav Supp: Crack on a trisket
Reputation: 255077
Soldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite member
Default

I think it's jealousy, but not the way you might think. People who take steroids can look great and get strong as hell. They can take themselves to places that naturals can never go, and they can do it fast too. But they take risks. And the greater the risks, the greater the possibilities. I think a lot of lifters would love to take steroids, but there are reasons they don't. Whether it's the illicit nature, or the possible negative effects, or whatever their issue is.

But they wish they could.

I'm in the Army right now, and I'm crazy jealous of everybody who smokes weed. I was never a pot head, but I'd partake every now and then, and not being able to sucks. I think that's the way some people feel about steroids. I can't wait to take more steroids, and I can't wait until I get out of the Army and smoke some sweet, stinky weed (Once I have another job, of course).
__________________
Current PRs at 242, raw w/ wraps- 525, 355, 605, 1485
Roboro tui, perimo vester adversarius
(Build yourself, destroy your enemy)
Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 09:00 AM   #5
RobMoriRB
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 10,240, Level: 67 Points: 10,240, Level: 67 Points: 10,240, Level: 67
Activity: 60% Activity: 60% Activity: 60%
 
RobMoriRB's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 4,168
Training Exp: 3
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Squat
Fav Supp: Mutant Mass
Reputation: 132581
RobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master memberRobMoriRB is a master member
Default

The reason why people use it is for money!!!! Think about NFL/MLb millions are up for grabs, everyone is doing it but only couple get caught.
__________________
MEET PR
Squat: 440
Bench: 301
Dead Lift: 501

GYM PR
Squat: 405
Bench: 285
Dead Lift: 475

Block Program:http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forums...ad.php?t=17576
BLOG:http://theanimalmethod.wordpress.com/
RobMoriRB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 09:13 AM   #6
gregger
Senior Member
Uber Brawn
Points: 1,411, Level: 21 Points: 1,411, Level: 21 Points: 1,411, Level: 21
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
gregger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 274
Training Exp: 3+
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Reputation: 5256
gregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributorgregger is a consistent contributor
Default

I'd like to jump in on this...
I'm a 53yr old natty, I've been told by a few guys that without gear I'm just wasting my time... My hard work for such little gain is worthless.

Would I like to? Absolutely...
But I'm afraid that my underlying health issues would only lead to trouble... Admittedly this is a risk I'm not willing to take.

I couldn't care less what others do, just don't tell me I'm somehow inferior because my size and strength is not what it could be...

Any thoughts here? Am I just spinning my wheels?
gregger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 09:57 AM   #7
big_swede
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 34,215, Level: 100 Points: 34,215, Level: 100 Points: 34,215, Level: 100
Activity: 62% Activity: 62% Activity: 62%
 
big_swede's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sweden
Posts: 12,038
Training Exp: 5
Training Type: Strongman
Fav Exercise: Cable flyes
Fav Supp: Celltech
Reputation: 480503
big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!big_swede is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregger View Post
I'd like to jump in on this...
I'm a 53yr old natty, I've been told by a few guys that without gear I'm just wasting my time... My hard work for such little gain is worthless.

Would I like to? Absolutely...
But I'm afraid that my underlying health issues would only lead to trouble... Admittedly this is a risk I'm not willing to take.

I couldn't care less what others do, just don't tell me I'm somehow inferior because my size and strength is not what it could be...

Any thoughts here? Am I just spinning my wheels?
I agree.

PED's will take its toll on your health, eventually.

It every mans decision weather its worth it or not.

I think alot of people are misinformed about the subject. Putting a pin in your ass wont make you strong like klokov or big like kai green. Its much more to it than people think.
__________________
big_swede is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 10:19 AM   #8
Soldier
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78 Points: 14,594, Level: 78
Activity: 89% Activity: 89% Activity: 89%
 
Soldier's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Hood, Tx
Posts: 4,154
Training Exp: On and off for 17 years.
Training Type: ARGH!!!
Fav Exercise: Bosu kickback pistols
Fav Supp: Crack on a trisket
Reputation: 255077
Soldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite memberSoldier is an elite member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by big_swede View Post
I agree.

PED's will take its toll on your health, eventually.

It every mans decision weather its worth it or not.

I think alot of people are misinformed about the subject. Putting a pin in your ass wont make you strong like klokov or big like kai green. Its much more to it than people think.
But I also think that a lot of people generalize too much. People hear the word steroids and imagine this single substance that makes people fast, huge, ripped and angry. There are dozens of mainstream substances that count as AAS, and just like weed is NOT the same as meth, a little test is not the same thing as a test/tren/var stack with some clen and T3 thrown in.

Everybody has their point where the risks outweigh the rewards. For some that means staying natty, and for some it means saying screw it, doing whatever they can to get huge, and probably dying young. But many think that these are the only options. it's simply not true. Low dose test can take you to places you could never go natty, with very little risk if you do whatever you can to take care of yourself.
__________________
Current PRs at 242, raw w/ wraps- 525, 355, 605, 1485
Roboro tui, perimo vester adversarius
(Build yourself, destroy your enemy)
Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 10:31 AM   #9
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,946
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Most folks start out assuming a person accomplished things via their straight natural abilities, and when they find out, some innocence is lost. People do have some inherent goodness, and want to see a fair competition. They are typically doing the best they can to process the fairness of the situation. Steroids do give an advantage we can't get naturally, so they will always be looked at as cheating by a majority of folks who are outside the realm of drug use and just watching as spectators. That's reality. We can't get angry at folks for trying to process fairness. They are doing the best they can.

This might piss some folks off, but I am saying it anyway. Taking drugs doesn't simply "equal the playing field" for those that choose to do it. There are world record-holding powerlifters who take 6-8 grams of injectables a week.

Are you willing to do this? Do you really think it's safe? If not, do you feel it's an "even playing field?"

Most lifters don't take this much. Truth. But when you know some world record holders do, what does that tell you? That more is probably better.

Regarding "what is healthy?" This has become a lost concept. If you see a really big or strong guy at a top level, and want to believe it's somehow healthy because it was said in a documentary "show me the deaths," well that BS. We see them dropping in their 40s and 50s all the time. If anyone wants to believe that "moderate cycles" of 2-3 grams per week along with HGH and maybe an oral is somehow healthy over the course of 10-20 years, I'm not buying it.

Beyond this, you add in the risk of injecting straight into your vein, which happens. Not to everyone, but it happens, even to experienced users. I know a guy that stopped breathing for 2 minutes because he pulled back an injection accidentally maybe 1/8th an inch after aspirating, injected into his vein and nearly died trying to call 911. There are tons of stories like this. Google them.

There are risks. That's my point.

Lastly, the notion that "they don't do much" is complete bull. This is usually perpetuated by guys who have been using for so long that they forgot what training off is like.

If you look at the numbers, there has only been one 2000+ raw powerlifting total in tested powerlifting feds...ever. There have been 100-ish raw 2000 pound totals in the history of the sport in total. Bottom line, 2000-2400 pound totals are hall of fame level, but without drugs 1600-1800 is more the equivalent.

In bodybuilding, most natural pros I know, and I've met a lot, weigh 170-182 on stage. This is 50 to 100 pounds less than pro IFBB bodybuilders.

And then we have guys running around touting themselves as natural, giving young lifters false standards. That is why many get pissed.

If you want natural standards, check out my 2 articles on strength and muscle standards for naturals.

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/ar...atural-lifters

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/ex...lding-genetics

Most of us here don't care what other lifters do. I don't. But most outside our small niche sports will always view it as cheating because it does in fact help to create superhuman monsters. The average Joe sees Mr. Olympia, and knows he takes "juice", and they hear A-Rod is taking steroids.

Of course they will think it's cheating. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to make the following connection...if Mr. Olympia became a freak, then steroids are likely helping A-Rod hit quite a few more homers.

I hope no one gets ticked over my opinion. Just trying to look at the argument fairly.

We are fed a lot of bull in this industry, and sadly a lot of it comes from our fellow lifters who want to pretend it's safe, they aren't abusing, and that steroids "don't make that much of a difference." Make up your own mind. You decide if 3-8 grams a week is worth it to you, and if it's healthy.

Still want to become a world record holder? Still want to become Mr. Olympia? What would you be willing to do?
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 02-10-2014 at 10:43 AM.
BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 10:33 AM   #10
Squatter
Squatatron
Max Brawn
Points: 27,624, Level: 98 Points: 27,624, Level: 98 Points: 27,624, Level: 98
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Squatter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: JimGym/CrewGym
Posts: 10,630
Training Exp: 20 Years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Squat & Deadlift
Fav Supp: Collagen
Reputation: 755126
Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!Squatter is one with Crom!
Default

I think there is alot of insecurity and ignorance on behalf of the general population who choose to be critical. Don't think the attitudes out there will ever change to be frank.

I personally never judge anybody for any reason. At the WPC Worlds in Vegas in November of 2012, I finished last in my masters class. The gap between me and the next guy(s) was huuuge, which made me very suspicious they were juicing. However, I didn't care. I'm in this game for the long haul and to love every rep along the way. Health is job#1 to me now that I am half a century old. Health will ensure my longevity.

Besides, my whole lifting career would come crashing down if I took them because Mrs Squatter would kill me!

I focus on recovery with monthly massages, chiro, and supps like Ark 3. I now also have a Biomat, which is ridding my body of inflammation and healing me from training 2X as fast. No joke. It warms the body from the inside out on a cellular level. Combine that with healthy cells and it makes for really quick recovery. It even warms your muscles pre-workout and I am 2X more flexible now.

I think that gap won't be as big next time!
__________________
My Favorite Part Of Lifting Is Having The Opportunity
Meet PR's: (May 2014) Raw Natural
Squat 475 lbs
Bench: 286 lbs
Deadlift: 501 lbs
Total: 1262 lbs
Age: 50

Gym PR's:
Squat: 495 lbs
Bench: 300 lbs
Deadlift: 520 lbs
Total: 1315 Lbs
Age 50
Squatter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where?...does it make a difference? 5kgLifter General Board 14 01-13-2013 02:44 PM
The Men Who Make Us Fat BendtheBar Low Carb & Paleo Diet 13 12-18-2012 09:52 AM
Steroid Era vs. Pre-Steroid Era Bodybuilding and Strength Training BendtheBar Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 14 11-18-2009 11:15 PM
Skip La Cour's Transformation Podcast: Make Your Training Efforts Simple And Effectiv Iron Gladiator General Board 0 07-04-2009 02:36 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.