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Old 09-19-2013, 11:20 AM   #21
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At the end of the day, I still havn't seen anyone post numbers of any sort on your base caloric expenditure and your caloric intake.

If you want to argue that carbs arn't as healthy as other things, ok... you can have that debate all you want, however I have seen no evidence other than conjecture that weight loss is calories in vs calories out.

I stand by saying that if you went on a no/low carb diet the reason you lost weight was because at that time you maintained a caloric deficit. Not because carbs magically made you fat.

From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046
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CONCLUSIONS: KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.
As for Insulin/sugar spikes, when foods are combined in the stomach they vary rarely impact insulin, unless you have a pre exsisting condition with insulin, in which case if you think you do... why havn't you seen a doctor?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12016989
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CONCLUSION:
Protein and dietary fiber of mixed food could markedly affect the glycemic index of foods and reduced the blood glucose response.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:30 AM   #22
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Not that I agree or disagree with your post but.... not all low carb diets are ketogenic diets.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:37 PM   #23
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This has been interesting and informative.

I think one thing that is tangling people up is that this discussion is taking place on a lifting forum. For the most part everyone has the baseline that they want to maintain or increase strength while losing mostly fat. So, people are actually more in agreement than disagreement, it's just relatively small degrees of difference.

I believe it is a fact you can eat pie and ice cream all day long and lose weight as long as your total calories is below daily maintenance calories for yourself. Is that the most efficient/healthy way to lose weight? I doubt it. And you certainly wouldn't gin or hold any strength.

However, high protein/fat and low carb seems to make it possible to eat at or slightly above maintenance and have a better shot at holding or gaining strength while losing some fat/water for people more concerned with strength but still want to lose a chunk of their gut.

I think those people who seek a perfect balance find it by pretty much avoiding sugar and eating almost exclusively clean carbs.

I don't think sugar is evil, but it sure doesn't help very many people reach their goals in my opinion unless you are gifted like Soldier mentioned.

My .02
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:32 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorship View Post
At the end of the day, I still havn't seen anyone post numbers of any sort on your base caloric expenditure and your caloric intake.

If you want to argue that carbs arn't as healthy as other things, ok... you can have that debate all you want, however I have seen no evidence other than conjecture that weight loss is calories in vs calories out.

I stand by saying that if you went on a no/low carb diet the reason you lost weight was because at that time you maintained a caloric deficit. Not because carbs magically made you fat.

From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046


As for Insulin/sugar spikes, when foods are combined in the stomach they vary rarely impact insulin, unless you have a pre exsisting condition with insulin, in which case if you think you do... why havn't you seen a doctor?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12016989
Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19246357 another one!

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Old 09-19-2013, 06:41 PM   #25
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I now have a headache....
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:06 PM   #26
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Ill say this too, while Im not the biggest supporter of taking snapshots of your insulin etc and saying that makes a food evil or not (to be fair I dont think anyone is saying that but im being extremely general) I do remember in nutrition class learning about carb sensitivity and that while we can look at all this knowledge and study there is a group of people that extremely sleepy and groggy if they were to break their fast with only carbs, and a lot of them. Now the practicality was that realistically you dont eat like that, but on some level an invidiviuals body can metabolize differently than someone elses (obviously Gorship whats your point), my point is, while I may not agree that low carb diet in and of itself is the reason for weight loss, but reducing your intake may make you feel better because you react differently to it and thus you expend more energy and burn more calories overall. I would have to dig and find any decent pubmed files on the issue. So at this point this whole paragraph is complete Bro-science.

But I want to make it known that im not trying to be the dream smasher or be rude and say anyone is dead wrong, I would just rephrase the whole conversation to this:

reduced amounts of sugar including but not limited simple carbs and simple sugars, can help a general feeling of well being thus improving quality of life; which is not limited to weight loss which is a result of calories in vs calories out aided by the elimination of empty caloric values previously taken in by simple carbs and sugars.
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Old 09-20-2013, 05:45 PM   #27
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This thread has lead me to question what I thought was fact regarding low carb eating. I hoped some one with knowledge would come in here and refute the claims being made against low carb eating, but it hasn't happened.
I now wonder if carbs truly has the impact on the body and fat storage that I was lead to believe it did.
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Old 09-20-2013, 05:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJosh View Post
This thread has lead me to question what I thought was fact regarding low carb eating. I hoped some one with knowledge would come in here and refute the claims being made against low carb eating, but it hasn't happened.
I now wonder if carbs truly has the impact on the body and fat storage that I was lead to believe it did.
Heavy lifting and eating healthy most of the time are 2 of the best things one can do for insulin sensitivity. I'd suggest that these facts negate some of the potentially negative effects of carbohydrate consumption, and therefore take away some of the potential benefits of low carb dieting. However, I'd never say that all macros are created equal. Rather, I'd postulate that there's more to eating more or less of certain macros than just biology. What I mean is, any time you limit the variety of the food to which people have access, those people will probably eat less food overall.

In the end, calories really are king. A caloric deficit results in losing body mass. It's more of a question of how you get there.

Now will people get fatter quicker if they OVER EAT carbs and don't exercise? HELL YEAH they will!
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJosh View Post
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but to just simply disregard carbohydrates impact on insulin and insulins impact on fat storage, is to disregard what I understand to be hard science. It is my understanding that insulin has a huge impact on fat storage in the body.
And it is also what I believe is accepted science, that some of us are more sensitive to the impacts of carbs/insulin than other's among us.
As much as it is hard to accept, all signs point the fact that all calories are not created equal. (I may get flamed for saying that)
Furthermore, it is foolish to simply state those on a low carb diet are eating less. That is based on assumption. NO doubt, this is not a blanket statement and that some people do eat less on a low carb diet, but others eat just as much as before.
I hope some of the other guys here speak up, but I know for a fact myself and other's on this forum have ate like a horse on a low carb diet and lost weight. Myself I've lost 40lbs thus far, another member 30+ pounds, one member of MaB even lost 150lbs! All while endulging on caloricly dense food, eating many meals a day and eating until full!
Those saying one can't eat as much on a low carb diet, simply have not taking the time to learn how to cook low carb. There is so much one can make.
I want to stress to simply attribute the results of low carb weightloss to lower calories is not accurate. No doubt, this may sometimes contribute, but there is a hormonal response to low carb dieting that aids in fat loss.
On one other note, I am in no way claiming that this sort of diet will get you shredded or in Bodybuilder contest shape. Of course it will not. That requires meticulous commitment and work. But I am saying, that for the average joe that wants to lose some weight and look good, low carb route is a valid option.
Very good discussion in here. This is my opinion on the matter. Really though, in the end, there are many approaches one can take to a successful eating program.
Allow me to respond to this BJ as there are some glaring issues with your postulations:

1) Insulin is indeed a storage hormone, but the notion that insulin randomly "creates" fat despite the cell being in an energy deficit is nonsensical. Moreover, people forget that while acute insulin secretion can lead to fat storage, it is much less important than the net fat turnover at the end of the day (e.g. your body will breakdown more body fat at other times of the day to maintain the turnover ratio).

2) Insulin is also one of, if not the most, potent anabolic hormones in the human body. It's actually counterintuitive to try and constantly "blunt" insulin secretion because it protects lean tissue in times of caloric deficit.

3) All calories are created equal, all macronutrients are not (think about it, there's a difference)
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:03 PM   #30
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Im with you Josh. I say put it to use and base it of of real world results. I know what works for me and will continue to use it. If I can drop 40lbs and maintain a 450 to 500 bench, Im sticking with it.

Not attempting to be an ass anyone, I can maintain strength and mass while dropping excess weight with this approach. Its easy for me to follow and to be truthful I enjoy this format of "diet". Thank You Good Night.....
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