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Old 12-19-2012, 10:36 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bruteforce View Post
Because Mexico's fairly strict gun laws have prevented so much violence...
UK has a high violent crime rate as well. I believe in 2003 the stats were:

--US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
--UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...rdsolr1804.pdf

To be fair, our murder rate is 4x higher, but a good chunk of that comes from a few festering sores such as DC, Richmond, Detroit, Neward, Baltimore, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._by_crime_rate

Outside of the major cities, we not only have a lower violent crime rate, but also an equal, if not lower murder rate.

So as one of these hicks from the sticks (as the high and mighty in this country mockingly call us), I like my crime-free life. Most of us own guns out here too.

There are probably a million ways to dice these statistics and manipulate them to serve our preferences and beliefs. I don't want to do that here. My only point is that there are complex crime problems that every country faces. One thing I will never do is allow another person, who does not walk in my shoes or on my land, to tell me which freedoms I should give up.

I mean no disrespect by this. I don't pretend to know why violent crime is so high in the UK. I could easily pull the gun card out and say you guys are in denial, but I don't think that's the correct thing to do because I do not live in your land nor understand your culture and what is driving the violence.

We are not crazy, nor in denial. We face complex problems and will continue to do the best we can to solve them without relinquishing our personal rights and freedoms. This is who we are, and how we choose to live. I like it, and hope others will respect that.

If others do not understand our culture, I can respect that. They don't walk in my shoes. Crazy or not, we like our rural America. We are very passionate about it, and this isn't going to change anytime soon.

I have a right to make my own tough decisions, to have my own culture, and to not care who it pleases.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:36 AM   #42
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I understand that gun laws are a big deal in the US, so I hope not to step on anyone's toes here.

It's one of those issues that many people outside the US find it incredibly difficult to understand. Other developed countries look at your situation with a resounding 'WTF'?

I certainly don't speak for everyone beyond your shores, but I'm one of hundreds of millions of people who just don't get the whole gun thing at all:

- we don't understand why you see owning a gun as being an essential part of freedom. There are many, many countries where democracy is just as highly prized as in the US, but where gun ownership is severely restricted. Their citizens do not feel that their civil liberties are taken away.

- we don't understand why you look for every possible solution to these slayings (e.g. treating the mentally ill differently, as if that is really going to make any difference) except the obvious one. It just looks to outsiders like denial - anything to keep the guns.

- above all, we don't understand why some Americans think that the solution to having school killing sprees is to have guns readily available in the school, or armed police/guards. People in my own school, both staff and students, just thought that idea was crazy. I mean, literally crazy. (you can see the reaction here (NSFW) and herein the politically neutral satire paper 'The Daily Mash' (some might find it offensive).

I guess it's something that you need to be born over there to understand. It's really hard for an outsider to see why it's a left vs right thing, an 'agenda', or a political issue at all.
Before i go on, i point out i mean no disrespect to you. You warned us.

But I have no clue why you linked those articles. Not only are they offensive and hateful,but they don't even attempt to make an argument. Nonsense.

Also,Steves above post is one of the greatest things I have EVER read. My respect has risen more for him. And as other good people have pointed out,we have a lot of wildlife. And for us meat hungry heavy lifting bastards,its expensive to buy meat at the store. Fresh deer or turkey is the best. And around my parts we have wild boar as big as 4 wheelers. A while back we shot 22 dogs at my neighbors,they all tested positive for rabies.

Legalize marijuana,outlaw guns. Yeah...no.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:58 AM   #43
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- we don't understand why you see owning a gun as being an essential part of freedom. There are many, many countries where democracy is just as highly prized as in the US, but where gun ownership is severely restricted. Their citizens do not feel that their civil liberties are taken away.
Let me put this simply...
If regular American citizens didn't own guns, we would have never been able to fight for our freedom in the first place.
Also, more people are saved by regular citizens who carry guns than any criminal kills. The problem is that isn't drama so the media doesn't go into a frenzy over "man stops robbery by flashing his gun at criminal".
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:17 AM   #44
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Its ok, when the US goes haywire I have 150 acres. You guys are welcome to come and live in Byrdtopia.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:18 AM   #45
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My favorite fishing spot has wonderfully large trout that when hooked will test the limits of a quality 5 weight fly rod. The best part about my spot is that you can hike for miles and fish all day without seeing a single person sharing your water. This special place is a secret that only a few people know about or can even access because the way in requires a well-built 4x4. It is very remote and wild area that few people get to see for themselves. To venture out there a person has to be self-reliant because help is a long ways away. The numerous bears we encounter there are luckily small, but the mountain lions grow very large. We encounter numerous dangers every time we venture out there. In fact I think the trout are the only thing living out there that won't hurt you or kill you given the chance. We have run-ins with bears, mountain lions, bobcats, rattlesnakes, coyotes and angry beavers that claim the waters as their own. Now I've never had to fire my gun or protect myself from these creatures as I have develop the skills to avoid such dangerous situations. But I count my lucky stars every time I come face-to-face with a sneaky mountain lion that I have my sidearm "just in case things turn South on me." I am not out there to harm the animals or look for trouble, I don't even kill the fish that I catch, but I feel a whole lot safer knowing that I have the means to protect myself and return home safely to my wife and children.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:51 AM   #46
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The numerous bears we encounter there are luckily small, but the mountain lions grow very large...but I feel a whole lot safer knowing that I have the means to protect myself and return home safely to my wife and children.
I'd feel happier with some form of defense on me, in that scenario, as well. I'd also need
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:55 AM   #47
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I'd feel happier with some form of defense on me, in that scenario, as well. I'd also need
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:15 AM   #48
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- we don't understand why you see owning a gun as being an essential part of freedom. There are many, many countries where democracy is just as highly prized as in the US, but where gun ownership is severely restricted. Their citizens do not feel that their civil liberties are taken away.
Tann,
First, I didn't read the links given the uproar (yet) but I will. I think it's important to read various perspectives and news outlets to see how different places react to events.

Second, IMO, the "essential freedom part" comes from the 2nd Amendment. Sadly, many Americans and many elected officials these days have very little understanding of the context of the Constitution. The 2nd Amendment was written as a way to allow citizens to mobilize to overthrow tyrannical government and to make sure that they had the means (arms) to do so, if need be.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

People say "Right to bear arms" and many haven't ever heard of the first part of the Amendment. Even Justice Scalia, a most conservative judge, has written that reasonable restrictions to gun ownership are in keeping with the 2nd Amendment. It's telling that the last time there was an assault weapons ban in place, the NRA didn't challenge it (Probably because they know it would uphold in court and lead to additional bans).

Is there any single America who actually believes that keeping guns will protect them from government? And have we heard any politician say they don't think people should be able to own firearms for personal protection and hunting?


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To be fair, our murder rate is 4x higher, but a good chunk of that comes from a few festering sores such as DC, Richmond, Detroit, Neward, Baltimore, etc.

...

So as one of these hicks from the sticks (as the high and mighty in this country mockingly call us), I like my crime-free life. Most of us own guns out here too.
Time and politics has made this an urban-rural debate and I think that's sad. I grew up in one of those festering cities, but outside the city are mountains and parks where hunters roam. My grandfather had guns and hunted regularly. If he could shoot it, we ate it. My mom owned a rifle. My greatgrandfather had a 38 under his bed and my barber (and older gentleman) kept a 45 in his top drawer.

I grew up in drug-infested areas and the one thing statisticans never tell you is a brutal truth: Most people who are shot and killed are done so by someone who knows them. Being a victim of random violence was relatively rare, up until the past 15-20 years.

My point is, there are many people who live near cities who don't like violence, and who do understand and respect gun ownership. I really just want the basics covered:

1.No more selling arms at Gun Shows where there are no background checks. What used to be a one-to-one single gun transaction has become a dealer selling hundreds of guns to individuals.

2. Including mental illness/instability/prior episodes of violence in background checks.

3. Making some weapons illegal.

4. Continued profiling of individuals who display the patterns that some are not beginning to understand lead some to do these horrible things. Gov't already does this, so why not add the emerging profiles of these young men?

A lot of people are reading the current discussion as overreaction and I'm not seeing that. We've had enough random, public gun violence since Columbine and have done nothing. Compare that to the additional travel restrictions that are put into place as soon a someone tries something new. Again, something's not right with that picture. At least, not to me.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:41 AM   #49
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1.No more selling arms at Gun Shows where there are no background checks. What used to be a one-to-one single gun transaction has become a dealer selling hundreds of guns to individuals.

2. Including mental illness/instability/prior episodes of violence in background checks.

3. Making some weapons illegal.

.
I actually agree with all of those ideas. The problem I have with it is that the anti-gun coalition WILL NOT STOP once they gain momentum. I've seen it happen to my beloved sport of four wheeling. It always starts small and within the confines of common sense. But once trails start closing it has a snowball effect and pretty soon you are left with NOTHING. There used to be thousands and thousands of miles of dedicated off road trails in my state, now there is just a few hundred miles left to use, and those are closed during "wet" weather conditions. Now those few trails left are in danger of being closed if they travel anywhere near a stream, river, or meadow. The "Antis" won't be happy until they win outright.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:48 AM   #50
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My wife and I were discussing profiling of folks like this just last night. Usually the song is the same each time an event like this happens, meaning people come out and say things like "so and so was odd" or "so and so had a history of wonky behavior". I don't have a fully-formed opinion of the hows or whats, but I do think if people end up in trouble for psych related issues, them it's probably a good idea that they not be allowed to own weapons.
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