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Old 11-21-2012, 05:27 PM   #11
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She's just taking the piss there, what an idiot.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:47 PM   #12
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Don't understand the Michael Moore reference. Seemed to be broadly supportive of the military in one of his films (can't remember which one), but opposed to military action in Iraq?

It's a bit strange really: stand there with a hand at your forehead (saluting) and the world's with you. Stand with your hand in a different position and everyone wants to break out the pitchforks. Funny you can earn so much anger, not by murdering anyne, but just by changing the position of one hand. Symbols, eh?
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:53 PM   #13
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Like others have said, she does have freedom of speech. If I was her employer, I'd exercise my right to fire her ass. I would not want anyone working for me with an attitude like that. She has said she is sorry but that shows lack of good judgement. Maybe she can work for Jane Fonda.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:33 PM   #14
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Her right to self expression, my right to say that I wish she were dropped off in a hostile land and used as target practice.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:39 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Don't understand the Michael Moore reference. Seemed to be broadly supportive of the military in one of his films (can't remember which one), but opposed to military action in Iraq?

It's a bit strange really: stand there with a hand at your forehead (saluting) and the world's with you. Stand with your hand in a different position and everyone wants to break out the pitchforks. Funny you can earn so much anger, not by murdering anyne, but just by changing the position of one hand. Symbols, eh?

Moore will say just about anything no matter how offensive, to get a rise out of people as apparently this dipstick of a woman will also. A match made.

Saluting service members are murderers? Really? If so I am guilty.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:03 AM   #16
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Moore will say just about anything no matter how offensive, to get a rise out of people as apparently this dipstick of a woman will also. A match made.
Oh right, I gotcha. I like some of his stuff but I'll never forgive him for his treatment of Charlton Heston.

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Saluting service members are murderers? Really? If so I am guilty.
I didn't mean that at all. It was kind of an abstract point. What I was trying to say was that it's odd - to me - that a hand gesture means so much. Like a salute or an extended middle finger: at the end of the day, it's just moving your hand one way or another. But I understand that I'm in a minority (possibly of one) on this.

I'm not agreeing with what she did, or saying people shouldn't salute, or accusing anyone of being a murderer.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:47 PM   #17
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Freedom is obviously a complicated issue since it appears to revolve around only being permitted to do what everyone else feels is correct, permissible, or more to the point "socially permissible" which by essence is not really freedom. He fought and died for her freedoms, as well as everyone else's, yes she should show some respect but insisting that she act in a set manner denies her the very freedom he fought for.
Exactly so. The US Supreme Court has spoken on similar issues, for example desecrating the flag.
Though symbols often are what we ourselves make of them, the flag is constant in expressing beliefs Americans share, beliefs in law and peace and that freedom which sustains the human spirit. The case here today forces recognition of the costs to which those beliefs commit us. It is poignant but fundamental fact that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt.
Soldiers do not have freedom of speech - charges of insolence, etc prevent that. Soldiers do not have freedom of association - you can't form a military union, or join various militant organisations. And of course soldiers must obey orders. Soldiers give up freedoms to protect the freedoms of others.

Soldiers exist to risk their lives for others, to protect the civilian population. Soldiers die so civilians don't have to die. Soldiers die to protect civilians who hold them in contempt.

Soldiers don't expect gratitude or respect for this. Historically, soldiers have not been given either. 1 stupid girl flips the bird to a man's grave. But 1,000,000 others dodge their taxes, taxes which go to rehabilitate wounded soldiers or care for their graves or offer mental health treatment, and petition the government to end programmes which employ veterans - is that not also ingratitude and contempt? Should all those 1,000,000 people lose their jobs, too?

No. Her contempt for soldiers is at least open and honest, the contempt of most of the population for soldiers is sneaky and craven.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:50 PM   #18
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Exactly so. The US Supreme Court has spoken on similar issues, for example desecrating the flag.
Though symbols often are what we ourselves make of them, the flag is constant in expressing beliefs Americans share, beliefs in law and peace and that freedom which sustains the human spirit. The case here today forces recognition of the costs to which those beliefs commit us. It is poignant but fundamental fact that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt.
Soldiers do not have freedom of speech - charges of insolence, etc prevent that. Soldiers do not have freedom of association - you can't form a military union, or join various militant organisations. And of course soldiers must obey orders. Soldiers give up freedoms to protect the freedoms of others.

Soldiers exist to risk their lives for others, to protect the civilian population. Soldiers die so civilians don't have to die. Soldiers die to protect civilians who hold them in contempt.

Soldiers don't expect gratitude or respect for this. Historically, soldiers have not been given either. 1 stupid girl flips the bird to a man's grave. But 1,000,000 others dodge their taxes, taxes which go to rehabilitate wounded soldiers or care for their graves or offer mental health treatment, and petition the government to end programmes which employ veterans - is that not also ingratitude and contempt? Should all those 1,000,000 people lose their jobs, too?

No. Her contempt for soldiers is at least open and honest, the contempt of most of the population for soldiers is sneaky and craven.
The US Military and in fact the USA, most certainly do show gratitude and respect to our Soldiers and Veterans. Please check your facts.

The Congressional Medal of Honor, Silver star and the Bronze Star just to name the top three awards given in battle. We have parades and a little holiday called Veterans day. Foundation after foundation how about Wounded Warriors, The American legion, Purple Heart Assc. Everybody and their Mothers have a bumper sticker say that they are grateful to our military

As for taxes, we have far more that a puny number like a million people cheating on their taxes.

Hell Kyle half our Country does not pay income taxes, Gee maybe we should blame them for the lack of programs for vets.

Her contempt was open and honest? My ass, she sure isn't holding to that now. Either she intentionally disrespected The Unknowns or as she is saying now she was just screwing around and didn't mean any disrespect.

Im no Lawyer but, http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx....11.23&idno=32 and http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/40/1315
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:46 PM   #19
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Birds gonna bird. But if a human wants to spit on those who fought for their freedom, their boss should be free to express himself by handing her some walking papers.
Every American, myself included, who participated in any 20th or 21st century war which the U.S. was involved, from World War I to the present, did NOT fight or die for our freedom. Paraphrasing Adam Kokesh (former marine and Iraq war vet), the people who are most dangerous to our freedom are all within a five-mile radius in Washington D.C., not somewhere halfway across the world. That being said, I still have reverence for those who died in combat, including a few of my friends. Flame away.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:43 PM   #20
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[A thought-provoking post.]

I read the link to Texas vs Johnson. Interesting. I'm always fascinated by the importance that many people in the USA place in their flag. Other Brits on here may disagree, but I don't think we have any thing approaching that.

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Soldiers give up freedoms to protect the freedoms of others.

Soldiers exist to risk their lives for others, to protect the civilian population. Soldiers die so civilians don't have to die. Soldiers die to protect civilians who hold them in contempt.
Is that not a slightly rosy view of things? Some soldiers lay down their lives to protect freedoms - certainly - but a lot more lay down their lives for the territorial or economic ambitions of their countries. I disagree with DW that none of the conflicts since WWI were defences of freedom, but I think many of them weren't.

Soldiers in many conflicts attack rival civilian populations. I guess you mean 'so that the civilians of their own population don't have to die?'

And I don't think that the majority of the population hold soldiers in contempt at all. Quite the opposite. I'd say they are lauded more now than any time in the last 60 years. No public figure in the UK would dare to criticise soldiers - they would be really pilloried for it, and I bet that's true in the US too.

Nothing against the military, and nit saying those in it don't deserve our respect, but I think the view they're always defending freedom is over-reaching a bit.
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