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Old 11-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron View Post

[A thought-provoking post.]

I read the link to Texas vs Johnson. Interesting. I'm always fascinated by the importance that many people in the USA place in their flag. Other Brits on here may disagree, but I don't think we have any thing approaching that.

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Soldiers give up freedoms to protect the freedoms of others.

Soldiers exist to risk their lives for others, to protect the civilian population. Soldiers die so civilians don't have to die. Soldiers die to protect civilians who hold them in contempt.
Is that not a slightly rosy view of things? Some soldiers lay down their lives to protect freedoms - certainly - but a lot more lay down their lives for the territorial or economic ambitions of their countries. I disagree with DW that none of the conflicts since WWI were defences of freedom, but I think many of them weren't.

Soldiers in many conflicts attack rival civilian populations. I guess you mean 'so that the civilians of their own population don't have to die?'

And I don't think that the majority of the population hold soldiers in contempt at all. Quite the opposite. I'd say they are lauded more now than any time in the last 60 years. No public figure in the UK would dare to criticise soldiers - they would be really pilloried for it, and I bet that's true in the US too.

Nothing against the military, and not saying those in it don't deserve our respect, but I think the view they're always defending freedom is over-reaching a bit.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #22
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Is that not a slightly rosy view of things? Some soldiers lay down their lives to protect freedoms - certainly - but a lot more lay down their lives for the territorial or economic ambitions of their countries. I disagree with DW that none of the conflicts since WWI were defences of freedom, but I think many of them weren't.

Soldiers in many conflicts attack rival civilian populations. I guess you mean 'so that the civilians of their own population don't have to die?'

And I don't think that the majority of the population hold soldiers in contempt at all. Quite the opposite. I'd say they are lauded more now than any time in the last 60 years. No public figure in the UK would dare to criticise soldiers - they would be really pilloried for it, and I bet that's true in the US too.

Nothing against the military, and nit saying those in it don't deserve our respect, but I think the view they're always defending freedom is over-reaching a bit.
Name one war, declared or undeclared, since the start of the previous century, that you believe was fought to protect the freedom of Americans, and I'll prove that it wasn't whatsoever.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:37 PM   #23
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Name one war, declared or undeclared, since the start of the previous century, that you believe was fought to protect the freedom of Americans, and I'll prove that it wasn't whatsoever.
You'll prove it, eh? That's a bold attitude, young man. Historians normally talk about interpretations not proofs. But OK, fair enough if you're talking about the freedom of Americans. I think I just took it as 'freedoms' from your first post (which you edited it whilst I was writing mine).

I think American armed forces have played a significant role in defending freedoms of others. e.g. in the Balkans

But I'm interested in your view on this: post world war two, there was a genuine and pervasive fear of soviet influence, and that was seen as a defence of the USA, and by extension, its freedoms. Are you saying that had no bearing at all on the various conflicts with USSR sponsored governments?
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:20 PM   #24
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You'll prove it, eh? That's a bold attitude, young man. Historians normally talk about interpretations not proofs. But OK, fair enough if you're talking about the freedom of Americans. I think I just took it as 'freedoms' from your first post (which you edited it whilst I was writing mine).

I think American armed forces have played a significant role in defending freedoms of others. e.g. in the Balkans

But I'm interested in your view on this: post world war two, there was a genuine and pervasive fear of soviet influence, and that was seen as a defence of the USA, and by extension, its freedoms. Are you saying that had no bearing at all on the various conflicts with USSR sponsored governments?
Communism was a brutally genocidal, mass-murdering, and horribly oppressive system, especially in Russia, Ukraine, China, and Cambodia, but the domino theory proved to be inaccurate, despite a stated intent of a "global revolution" to engulf the world with Marxist ideology. The spread of communism didn't occur in these other countries. Also, the U.S. wasn't being invaded by the Red Army, unlike Europe during the first half of the 20th century, so I don't view this as a direct defense of American freedom. Korea and Vietnam were continuations of our meddling in civil wars and regional conflicts, which started with the Great War, a.k.a. World War One.

Currently, AIPAC (the Israel lobby) guides modern U.S. foreign policy, along with Zionist moles who infiltrated the Pentagon and Congress, such as Wolfowitz, Feith, Zakheim, Lieberman, Schumer, Levin, etc.

BTW, Trotsky, one of the key figures in the formation of Russian communism, was primarily financed by Jacob Schiff, an American, during the early 1900s, shortly before the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917.

Who financed Lenin and Trotsky?
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:38 PM   #25
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The US Military and in fact the USA, most certainly do show gratitude and respect to our Soldiers and Veterans. Please check your facts.

The Congressional Medal of Honor, Silver star and the Bronze Star just to name the top three awards given in battle. We have parades and a little holiday called Veterans day. Foundation after foundation how about Wounded Warriors, The American legion, Purple Heart Assc. Everybody and their Mothers have a bumper sticker say that they are grateful to our military
You mention medals and bumper stickers. Those are nice. People also have bumper stickers about climate change; on a vehicle producing heaps of carbon dioxide, they express concern about producing too much carbon dioxide.

Gestures mean nothing, action is important.

If Americans support veterans so much, why are 1 in 4 of the homeless veterans? Why did the 9th Circuit say that veteran mental health care was so bad, it's unconstitutional?

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Hell Kyle half our Country does not pay income taxes, Gee maybe we should blame them for the lack of programs for vets.
I am not talking about the people who do not pay taxes, and are not supposed to under the law. You should blame all the people who evade their taxes. You should most especially be wary of people who evade their taxes, yet loudly profess their support for veterans, for example with bumper stickers. "I offer full support short of actually doing anything."

Before the second Iraq war, there was a lot of talk for chickenhawks, people who loudly support going to war, but would themselves never volunteer. we get a similar thing with taxes and various government programmes, everyone thinks there should be programmes for this and that, everyone wants someone else to pay for them.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:57 PM   #26
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Communism was a brutally genocidal, mass-murdering, and horribly oppressive system, especially in Russia, Ukraine, China, and Cambodia, but the domino theory proved to be inaccurate, despite a stated intent of a "global revolution" to engulf the world with Marxist ideology. The spread of communism didn't occur in these other countries. Also, the U.S. wasn't being invaded by the Red Army, unlike Europe during the first half of the 20th century, so I don't view this as a direct defense of American freedom. Korea and Vietnam were continuations of our meddling in civil wars and regional conflicts, which started with the Great War, a.k.a. World War One.
Well, not every communist government had those characteristics. That aside, yes, I understand that neither those invasions nor the spread of communism came about. So various conflicts that the US were involved in, directly or indirectly (such as Nicaragua) were probably not necessary to defend American dominance (aka 'freedoms'). However, that's with the benefits of hindsight. At the time, many in the administration were convinced about the communist threat (unless you believe Chomsky's argument that the Cold War was about promoting the military-industrial complex). So, although there was plenty of meddling in countries in order to defend US influence, I think it's fair to say that part of the motivation at the time was a desire to stop the perceived encroachment of communism- and by extension American freedoms. Even though that may have been misguided.

Your zionist moles idea sounds horribly close to a zionist conspiracy idea.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:08 PM   #27
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None of the wars in the past two centuries were about freedom??? WTF? DW if it weren't for WWII, you would be speaking Japanese or German right now. If you don't believe that, you are extremely misguided.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:39 PM   #28
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You mention medals and bumper stickers. Those are nice. People also have bumper stickers about climate change; on a vehicle producing heaps of carbon dioxide, they express concern about producing too much carbon dioxide.

Gestures mean nothing, action is important.

If Americans support veterans so much, why are 1 in 4 of the homeless veterans? Why did the 9th Circuit say that veteran mental health care was so bad, it's unconstitutional?


I am not talking about the people who do not pay taxes, and are not supposed to under the law. You should blame all the people who evade their taxes. You should most especially be wary of people who evade their taxes, yet loudly profess their support for veterans, for example with bumper stickers. "I offer full support short of actually doing anything."

Before the second Iraq war, there was a lot of talk for chickenhawks, people who loudly support going to war, but would themselves never volunteer. we get a similar thing with taxes and various government programmes, everyone thinks there should be programmes for this and that, everyone wants someone else to pay for them.

The 9th circuit says many things, which are often kicked to the curb by the Supremes.

I am at the Veterans hospital monthly, there are more programs than could ever possibly be listed here. I know from experience that help is readily available.

I know that if you look at the resources that are available, you will see that action is being taken.

I don't read about this in the paper or online, I live it.

We love our Vets here (nine more of which were just elected to the house of Representatives).

Yes, there are those that would cheat on their taxes and would never volunteer. Just as their are those that suck of the system, never contributing to society who also would never volunteer.

Things are getting better VA figures show steep decline in number of homeless veterans - News - Stripes

I say we cut some entitlements, that the lazy are using and redirect those funds to programs for the Veterans.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:21 PM   #29
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None of the wars in the past two centuries were about freedom??? WTF? DW if it weren't for WWII, you would be speaking Japanese or German right now. If you don't believe that, you are extremely misguided.
?

Japanese aims were to control raw materials and labour supply in the Pacific, surely? Not to conquer the US. Germany was looking for expansion into Europe, and wasn't even looking for a fight with the UK, let alone America.

(Edit to add: Germany weren't initially looking for a fight with the UK, but once it had started, they were committed. So I think without US intervention, we could well have been speaking German over here - metaphorically, at least. I don't suppose they would have started teaching it in schools especially as we suck at langauges.)

The American intervention in the war was decisive, and Europe is indebted to the US for it, but I don't think you were ever in danger of invasion.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:58 PM   #30
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?
The American intervention in the war was decisive, and Europe is indebted to the US for it, but I don't think you were ever in danger of invasion.
So you assume you know what Hitler's plan was? Not World domination. Do you really think he would have been satisfied with just Europe?

The war was not for freedom? Anyone who thinks not, is delusional.
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